Showing posts with label Barack Obama. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Barack Obama. Show all posts
Friday, June 18, 2010
Friday, May 7, 2010
The elite get off on making you laugh along with them at their satanic jokes.
Hahah! See, it's funny cuz Obama's actually overseeing two illegal wars in which predator drones really ARE killing children on a regular basis! HAH! Soo hilarious!! Armchair Liberals are now chuckling along with the same tasteless jokes that would have had them oh so upset when the previous puppet president was in office! The only thing funnier than this joke is our inability to realize that Obama and Bush are identical! LMAO!
Monday, March 29, 2010
What would Bill Hicks think about bible thumping within the Truth Movement?
Why should they "make it hard" for people to have abortions? Hate to burst your holy rolling bubble, but abortions have been performed for thousands of years and are a part of human behavior. Even the Catholics were tolerant of abortion for most of their history, until the modern hyper-politicized version of the issue. Eugenics is real, no doubt. But forcing people onto welfare because of children they cant provide for, is a far more valuable tool of control for these Globalists than abortion clinics. There are 500,000 orphans in this country and the numbers are growing. If abortion is an illuminati plot, they better pick up the pace.
You bible-thumpers would do well to take a lesson from Barry Goldwater, one of the last true conservatives in this country, who actually took seriously the conservative notion that government should interfere with you and your family as little as possible. While personally opposed to abortion, Goldwater understood that forming the Abortion Police, armed and ready to force women, literally if necessary, to give birth to children they can't provide for, was not the place of government. It seems entirely lost on most "conservatives" that the truly conservative perspective is pro-choice, as one of the pillars of true conservatism is minimization of the necessary evil of central government.
All 500,000 of those orphans are available for adoption, by the way. I'm talking to you, Alex Jones. Take some of your parents' money, which you used to bolster your career, and use it to save a couple of these poor children, whose suffering, through your ideology, you've helped to create.
Another delusion the bible thumping portion of the truth movement suffer from is the belief that women's reproductive freedom, and even woman's suffrage as a whole, are illuminati plots to destroy the family. This is where a firm understanding of the sociopathy of the elite comes in handy. Every single endeavor of the international banking elite is a double edged sword, in that there is the usual damage done to our health, dignity, wallets and sovereignty, but along with it comes the unintended consequences of, and reactions to, their actions. Even a chess move as directly murderous and surgical as 9/11 has had the effect of a mass awakening, which I assure you, is both unexpected and very troublesome for the ruling class.
The point is that there is no such thing as a one sided act of aggression from them. They can make chess moves, and perform shock tests, but there are rules to the game, even when you play on their level. So the likelihood of the hidden hand having its fingers dug into women's suffrage and women's liberation does not mean that they will not ultimately prove to be a step toward progress and a victory for free humanity. Just like the C.I.A's flooding of the "hippie" movement with drugs has no bearing on one's God given right to consume what they choose.
The real reason this issue (which belongs in the family and not in the courtroom)has been thrust upon us is because like gay marriage it has the capability to divide us before we can realize our common ground. Listen to me now, holy rollers: Our opinions on reproductive rights will not matter when we're sitting next to one another in a FEMA camp. Neither will our opinions on gay rights or separation of church and state. Let's address the looming threat of the New World Order before we play into their hands by failing to prioritize our concerns.
The concept of opposing abortion through legislation has been nothing but a trick played on the religious community. The truth is that if you want to end abortions, you must work to strengthen your community and spread your ideals, not through force as you've historically become addicted to doing, but through a strong and healthy community that will attract outsiders into your belief system, not draw them in through court ruling. Bear in mind, Christians, your book says to be fruitful and multiply, not be fruitless and multiply to the point of overflowing orphanages.
The Gibroney Hunter VS The Hutch & Crew: Facebook Battle
The Hutch: I voted for Obama and all I got was this historic victory on health care :: http://tr.im/SX5A
Hutch's Boy: That's not all you got...You also got the lowest debt rating since the Civil War. Congratulations!!
The Gibroney Hunter: And don't forget a bigger better Patriot Act. You the man, Barry!
The Hutch: Bigger? I thought it was just resigned as the same bill?
In any case, I'll never get the exact president I want nor will you. Guys like **** would take up arms and revolt. Obama is, whether we like it or not, a centrist. Change is gradual. Bitching about it and writing off Obama as some sort of failed fascist solves nothing. All we can do is keep trying to elect more and more progressive politicians each year.
Hutch's Boy: WTF?? Did you just call Obama a centrist? You HAVE to be shitting me. Right now, the Federal government is controlling 48% of the US economy. We are more socialist than almost all of Europe.
Umm, so other than Stalin, who's a leftist to you?
The Gibroney Hunter: First he renewed it, and now recently expanded some of the (illegal and unconstitutional) wiretapping provisions. This isn't about finding your dream president, it's about the fact that Obama very obviously works for the same internationalist criminals that Bush worked for. Most people in this country are so preoccupied with their pathetic search... See More for a national daddy figure that they're not even aware that the constitution very clearly limits the authority of the president. Too bad Barry seems to be following Bush's lead, and executive ordering the fuck out of us until the republic's dead.
Other than the fact that the Huff. Post told you so, why do you find the comparisons between Obama and other totalitarian, fascist leaders so farfetched? Is it the incessant push toward consolidation of power in the hands of a centralized government? Or the maintaining of foreign wars for resources? Or maybe some people have been so effectively brain-neutered by the mainstream media to actually believe that historical precedent no longer applies to us, and that no political and economic predators will ever set their gaze upon us, the special people. I swear, McLiberalism is worse than Christianity sometimes.
Hutch's Boy: Louie, what exactly is your problem with Christianity? Is it the hospitals and charities that dot the world? Or perhaps it is the very notion of liberty which it promotes? Aren't you in favor of such liberties? Remember, without the Declaration, the Constitution is an empty document.
****, I couldn't resist.
The Hutch: By all means, Chris. The only thing I enjoy more than debating with you is watching other people debate with you.
Lout, I'm not sure why you seem to think that taking the most extreme point of view possible and lacking any and all empathy for other mindsets is the best possible path to progress. It's really not that black and white.
The Gibroney Hunter: The bloodsoaked fairytale that is Christianity has crushed human liberty and potential, along with every other state sponsored religion of the world. The amount of children and innocence destroyed by this perverted faith, whether it be the uneducated teenagers tricked into fighting the 'evildoers' in the desert, or the women who are guilt tripped into functioning as broodmares for the state, far outweighs any competition from us heathens. But here's the short answer to your question of what my problem with Christianity is: It isn't true. As in, it is false. The story of jesus predates Jesus by millenia. This means, quite obviously, that the story and character traits of jesus (born of a virgin, etc) were simply prescribed to him, if he even existed at all (which is unlikely since none of the prominent historians of the time mention him as an individual, only as a concept (I.e, "the Christ"). Oh yeah, then there's the whole "priests porking children almost constantly" thing.
Hutch's Boy: The only fairy tales referenced above Louie, are your own. It would be fairly easy to pick them apart piece by piece. Let's first deal with your assertion that Christianity is responsible for more bloodshed than the heathens. Really? Mao, 65million, atheist. Stalin, 45 million, atheist. Hitler: 26 million? (this is off the top of my head) pantheist... See More, which technically qualifies as a heathen. Are you sure you don't want to withdraw that ridiculous comment?
In fact, your comments all have about the same level of credibility. Which religions do you claim predate the tale of Christ? What textual criticisms are you applying to the source documents? Are you willing to apply the same standards to the 45,000 pieces of manuscript evidence related to the NT? I seriously doubt it, as you seem to have an aversion to legitimate scholarly works.
Take some time, do some homework, offer some legitimate facts, not this dribble. Then we can have an honest dialogue, not a rock throwing contest.
The Gibroney Hunter: I'm not taking the most extreme view possible, you've just been trained to believe that anyone who's not regurgitating mainstream media double-speak must be in some way extreme. In reality, your belief that this Obama character came out of nowhere to slay the neocon giants and get this country "back on track" is far more extreme than my sober, fact-based assertion that people and organizations in possession of vast power and resources will do what they must to preserve it, including staging false flag attacks and then propping up a fake liberal president as damage control to pacify an increasingly restless population. My views seem extreme only to the sheltered naifs dependent on the mainstream "go back to sleep" media.
The Gibroney Hunter: I can see that your emotion has you blinded on this issue, which is why I'll simply ignore your limp-wristed criticisms. Those numbers must be off the very tippy top of your head, as you seem to have conveniently omitted some of the biggest, like, for example, the American genocides, all committed in the name of your fictional religion (which if we were to tally up, probably would total close to a half billion people, immediately proving you wrong) or the crusades, or our wars for empire against communism, in which fighting the "godless" commies was a major theme. There are many more examples, but I'm afraid I'm not going to play personal encyclopedia to someone who resorts to the mindless chant "prove it!".. The last refuge if a man who knows he's wrong. My statements are so glaringly obvious as to not require footnotes of citation. If for some reason you're not educated enough to know of Mithra, who was born of a virgin, crucified and resurrected 3 says later, or the Egyptian god Isis, also born of a virgin named Myra and resurrected, or the numerous Hindu gods featuring the same played out story, then I'm afraid you require more assistance than I can provide in facebook comments.
Of course, as a fellow advocate of true science, I'm sure I don't need to remind you that the bible cannot stand independently as an historical text, because of the obvious likelihood of bias. It can reinforce other, well... Real historical texts from the time (of which there are many.. None of which mentioning Jesus) but I don't need to address one word of the NT, since, quite simply, it does not pass the scientific/historical litmus test.
The Hutch: Lou, the difference here, is that while I assert my views and try to defend them where I can or reassess them when I can't, you seem so completely and utterly convinced of what you believe that there's no room for other modes of thinking.
Such certainty in the face of so little actual knowledge (in the Socratic sense, not in the "you're stupid" sense) simply comes off as radical and you do your own positions little service.
Also, Chris, a lot of what Lou is referencing re: the Jesus mythos is in that book I mentioned, Joseph Campbell's Hero of a Thousand Faces. Definitely worth checking out.
The Gibroney Hunter: Actually, places where there are no room for other modes of thinking are, for example, the Huff. Post, who asked Jesse Ventura to write an article for them, then censored him when he discussed 9/11. Or pretty much anywhere else in the mainstream media. I am passionate in my views, but not rigid. I acknowledge that I have been wrong in the past and may be wrong again, like any really honest thinker would. But with that said, your criticism seems to be less about my beliefs per se, and more about the fact that I believe them so passionately.
The Hutch's Boy: Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight...JN 18:36
Louie, are you trying to bully me? LOL...it won't work. Besides, it's entirely ineffective (experience speaking here) and it undermines your credibility. In other words, you are among friends, so relax.
Speaking of your facts...your arguments seem to be schizophrenic and somewhat contradictory. Let's deal with one issue at a time, okay? Your comparison to "US genocide" to the killings of Mao, Stalin and Hitler causes me to chuckle and shudder at the same time. Do you really believe what you said? I did some follow up, and the actual numbers are:
Mao: 50-78 million people murdered
Stalin: 23 million people murdered (including the purges)
Hitler: 12 million people murdered
I'd like to see specific numbers from the "American genocides" and not baseless emotional rants.
But there is another component of your claim that I find curious. Your answer carries with it the assertion that the US is a Christian nation? Wow, you and Pat Robertson have more in common than I thought. Even I don't believe that. It's true that our foundational documents rely heavily on the Bible, but it's actually a compromise between Christians of many denominations, Deists and a few Jewish people.
With regards to the Crusades, or other wars you have pointed to, please note my first sentence. It's Jesus' answer to Pilate when asked if he were a king. Do you see Jesus' reply? How can one possibly claim to fight in the name of Christianity, when Christ disavowed himself of any such action? In fact, he chose NOT to defend himself, when Pilate was desperate for an excuse to let him go.
That's actually an important distinction, when analyzing the Crusades. When the Christians killed in the name of Christ, they did so in direct contradiction to Jesus' life and words. The Muslims, however, were following the exact example of Mohammed himself. Worth noting, I think.
Would you care to address your other points? They also have some glaring difficulties. You should know, Louie, that I haven't stumbled into my set of beliefs. I am also happy to carry this discussion to a deep level, as it is always a learning and enriching experience. Please respond. I'm looking forward to it.
PS...In case you two are interested, the arguments of that book are right out of the French and German Enlightenment movement of the late 18th/early 19th Centuries. Most of their claims held a lot of weight, until the British began archaeological study of Israel. They are actually far less palatable today, but I'd be happy to address them.
The Gibroney Hunter: No, I'm not attempting to bully you through facebook. That would be retarded. If you are being bullied though, it's by facts and reality, not by me.
Why you would chuckle over the mass murder of an estimated 113 million people is beyond me, as it is both unfunny and devastating to your argument, even without the mention of the countless other mass murders and wars committed in the name of god.
I'm not sure what your point is, in engaging in hair-splitting over whether or not our country is officially (whatever that means) Christian, as we all know that god and patriotism are always used as motivators to trick people into fighting in wars. So "officially" Christian or not, your god and bible are an indispensable part of the military industrial complex.
We all know that Jesus was a pacifist. And we all also know that nearly every single one of his followers through the ages have not been. So while your observations comparing muhammad and Jesus are correct, I'm afraid your point is moot, since the end result is the same: people tricked into killing other people because of a book. But while we're comparing the two religions, it's worth noting that the prophet Muhammad has the advantage over Jesus of actually having existed and being a legitimate historical figure. That is also worth noting.
You're not the first to try to dismiss the historical truth about the Jesus story as some fad of the enlightenment, as this period was when these hidden origins of Christianity began to be more widely known. But no amount of archaeological digging can change the widely recognized fact that Jesus is a hybrid of many dieties. I'm curious, what specific artifacts did the British produce that disprove the claim that the Jesus story predates Christianity by millenia?
Hutch's Boy: "And we all also know that nearly every single one of his followers through the ages have not been."
You know, I almost doubted this comment, until I saw the picture of Mother Theresa choking a small Nepali girl for using improper grammar when she begged for bread!
Again, Louie, no credibility. Seriously, you shouldn't throw bombs without knowledge. The church has been engaged in human rights causes since its inception. I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the #1 casualty of the Roman Catholic Church are Christians. In the case of the RCC, it is primarily a secular humanist political movement, as much as it is about the Christian faith.
" the prophet Muhammad has the advantage over Jesus of actually having existed"
Not a serious scholarly argument, given the massive amount of manuscript evidence from the NT and archaeological evidence supporting the gospel accounts. I will defer to Sir William Ramsay's work on the book of Acts and Luke. There is SERIOUS scholarly work on the subject. Those who claim Jesus to be a mythical historical figure are also big on fake lunar walk claims, as I understand. Seriously, it's just an angry, ignorant position. It ignores all of the rules for textual criticism and the analysis of ancient history.
It's probably a waste of time, but here's a brief defense of the archeological claims. It's footnoted well, so you can find more in-depth work on the subject if you'd like.
http://www.grmi.org/Richard_Riss/evidences/3trust.html
What you cite are recycled arguments that have been TROUNCED years ago, but are being thrown out there again with the hopes that its followers would choose to embrace ignorance than actually check the facts. There is ample archaeological evidence to support the historic veracity of Luke's account. If you'd like, we can go more in depth on this subject.
As to your final point about the story of Jesus predating his birth by millenia? You and I will have little quarrel here, Louie. It's actually the PRIMARY reason I'm a Christian and not merely a convert to Judaism. Jesus' birth, life and resurrection were indeed specifically spelled out in advance of his life. In fact, I think a better argument against the Bible would be if no hybrids of the story could be found in other civilizations, given the Biblical claim of common origin.
The first time we see the prediction of the virgin birth, for example, is in the Garden of Eden. In Genesis Chapter 3:
GE 3:15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."
The use of the phrase in Hebrew is "seed of the woman" is significant, if you understand it in its context. Only in modern times did Jewish people recognize genealogical lineage through the woman. It was always a patriarchal society (a radical departure is attributable to Christianity, incidentally) an in this context is a direct reference to Eve being a sole progenitor. Worth noting. There are countless other examples from the book of Genesis, whereby the entire gospel message can be derived. But I'm sure you aren't all that well versed on the subject. I'd be happy to enlighten you, if you desire.
The Gibroney Hunter: At this point I'm just amused that you would even attempt to refute the very obvious fact that the vast majority of christians have not practiced pacifism, as Jesus (supposedly) did. The very fact that your rebuttal consists only of a reference to one mother Theresa, is confirmation of how silly your stubborn disagreement on this point is. And let's just skip over any lame response like "yeah but real christians are pacifists." We don't get to cherrypick like that. "real" Christians, just like Sarah Palin's "real" Americans, must view themselves as a whole, and not selectively. Otherwise the very distinction of "Christian" becomes meaningless.
I'm also not sure why you're unaware of the fact that the bible simply does not qualify as a historical text independently. As much fun as it would be to debate this, I'm afraid it's a simple indisputable fact within the fields of of history and archaeology. While Sir William Ramsay's work may be a valid scholarly examination of the bible, it in no way supports your claim that the bible is a valid scholarly work. You're aware that science must be unbiased, correct? You're also aware that the bible, whether you believe the stories or not, is extremely biased, as per the definition of a book of faith? I'd hate to assume otherwise, but your statements leave me little choice.
"There is ample archaeological evidence to support the historic veracity of Luke's account."
Which "lukes account"? Which politicized translation of the account should we go by? Are we beginning to see the problem here? Also, the very act of being ones disciple disqualifies one from taking a truly unbiased scholarly approach to their god. Think about it. If I believed George bush was my god.. Literally.. Then wouldn't I be the very last person you'd turn to for an unbiased account of George bush?
"Those who claim Jesus to be a mythical historical figure are also big on fake lunar walk claims, as I understand."
This is what's called the "guilt by association" technique. When someone cannot counter with facts or superior reasoning, they resort to associations with unrelated, and socially stigmatized beliefs, like Elvis being alive, and what have you. This is the equivalent to being a hack in the field of comedy. Also, I can only laugh when being called crazy by someone who believes in an invisible man in the sky, holding a list of 10 things he doesn't want you to do.
I can only express sympathy at your delusional assertion that the reason that other deities throughout history have had the same story and characteristics of the Sun-God, is because it was all a big cosmic build-up to the real god, who really was born of a virgin, nevermind the numerous other gods to whom this was attributed first. And yes, the crucifixion story predates Christianity, but this time it's the real deal. With all due respect, give me a break. These types of arguments remind me of the small child, having just been told there's no Santa, trying desperately to theorize about how such a fat man really could fit through the chimney. It reflects a state of arrested development, both emotional and intellectual.
Also, you seem to be confused about what it means to "trounce" a belief. You can search til the cows come home for positive confirmation of jesus' existence (which of course you won't find). But that misses the point. You must disprove the existence of the belief on deities like Mithra, Zoroaster, Horus, and various Hindu deities, all predating Jesus and having the same characteristics (which makes sense, since the entire story is based on astronomy/astrology, not an individual)
The Hutch: This argument like the goddam world series and super bowl all wrapped into one awesome facebook thread.
Hutch's Boy: Louie, I'm not sure you know who Sir William Ramsay is. He's actually responsible for most of what we know about Asia Minor and the Roman Empire. He's no lightweight, and I would think his opinion on matters of ancient history would carry a LOT more weight than any document you have referenced. From Wiki:
http://bit.ly/9xPYLV
With regards to Ramsay, I ESPECIALLY love your comment: "You're aware that science must be unbiased, correct? You're also aware that the bible, whether you believe the stories or not, is extremely biased, as per the definition of a book of faith?"
Not only is Ramsay an internationally respected scientist (he was even knighted, dude!) but HE apparently set out with the exact same belief that you expressed above. When he initially went to Israel it was to DISPROVE Luke's writings (Acts and Luke). His conclusion? He believed Dr. Luke to be the greatest and most accurate historian in all of antiquity. Ramsay's conversion to Christianity occurred AFTER he set out to examine the evidence. Something I can say of myself, and frankly something which you have not endeavored to do.
But it sounds like your version of science requires me to disregard the evidence and go with the angry guy who "says it's so". LOL...I hope you appreciate my humor. It's not intended to be completely insulting (just a little insulting).
Seriously, though, you should take a closer look before you lash out. Your "facts" are not based on research. They are based on bogus assertions from angry people who pretend to have the facts.
For example, "Which politicized translation of the account should we go by?"
Are you referring to Textus Receptus, or Wescott and Horts? Do you even know how manuscript evidence is compiled and graded? Are you even mildly aware of the MOUNTAIN of manuscript evidence for the NT verses other works? There are literally TENS OF THOUSANDS of pieces of manuscript evidence (not versions, mind you, but manuscripts) used to compile modern NT texts. Where there are differences, they are actually just spelling or grammar. There have been NO significant conflicts reported by competent scholars. Read Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" for a thorough annotation. Incidentally, Josh's book is actually copies from his doctoral thesis. He was compiling evidence to DISPROVE the Bible through the types of "errors" you misreport. His work has impacted millions..
I think it's time you prove something. You make a lot of sweeping statements and say things like "everybody knows" but so far have offered zero evidence.
You say the crucifiction story predates Christ? Why don't you provide "evidence".
Or, you make the claim that "nearly every single one" of Jesus' disciples have not been pacifists? Oh my...why don't you present me with a study which demonstrates the warlike nature of Christians verses the rest of society. Holy crap that's funny.
Do you know why I picked Mother Theresa? Unlike MOST Christians, she's known for her life accomplishments. Most Christians I know give of themselves and do not seek fame or recognition in return. Maybe my church is the exception, but we rarely set out to murder our fellow man in ours. Hmm...Are you sure the people who fight wars aren't doing it for greed and lust for power?
Anyway, I'd like to see your "evidence" for the pre-Jesus crucifiction stories (along with manuscript references, please), and/or an academic study linking faith to violence.
Good luck.
The Hutch: It is worth noting, Chris, that Mother Theresa is a lot of trumped up nonsense. Christopher Hitchens wrote an expose book on her and there's a lot of stuff in her life that the church doesn't talk about.
In other words, Saint Theresa is no saint.
The Gibroney Hunter: This isn't a popularity contest. Science isn't conducted by reputations, it's conducted with certain unbreakable rules. No matter how big your hard-on for Ramsay is, it will never cange the fact that.. Everybody sing it with me now... The bible is not a valid historical document. I'll ask again, since you didn't answer the first time: exactly what artifact or document was discovered that conclusively proved that Jesus did exist and is god?
You seem to think that a passing reference to an author and his conversion is adequate scientific evidence to support your claim, which could help explain why you're a Christian in the first place, as your desire to be right far outweighs your ability to follow basic scientiic principles.
You appear to be defending Christianity against a charge that wasn't made, namely that Christians are especially warlike, compared to followers of other religions. You took issue with my statement that Christianity, like all other state sponsored religions, is used to manipulate people into fighting wars. Unfortunately this doesn't set Christianity apart from other faiths, only gives it the predictable stink of organized religion.
You need an academic study to understand the reality of the crusades, or the inquisition, or witch trials?
Greed? Lust for power? Uhm, I think you're thinking of the people who start wars, not the people who fight in them. The 18 year old kid from Kentucky who signed up for college money and because his church told him it's the right thing to do, is not going to be rich or powerful, I assure you. Is it just me or are your statements becoming yet more ridiculous?
"Most Christians I know.."
"Maybe my church is the exception.."
Told ya. Told ya you would use the "yeah but REAL Christians are different" routine. I'm very sorry. But you Christians don't get to support war, sexism, bigotry, and rape of children worldwide and then get to be pacifists simply because you like the title.
I've never seen someone who's offered no evidence of their own, other than the quasi-evidence of religious manuscripts, so incessantly demand that the other side produce it. Usually Christians know enough not to tread into scientific waters, since science has this tendency to swiftly and easily dismantle myths, like the Christian myth, or the myth of the official story of 9/11. Also a simple google search for the word "Mithra" or "Horus" should provide you with much of the evidence you need, but here you go. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,893345,00.html
Lashing out? I can't think of more typically Christian behavior than to begin a debate on your faith, and when confronted with the facts to accuse the other side of "lashing out". Telling you the truth about your woefully misguided faith isn't lashing out. It's actually an act of compassion, as my hope is that Christians will be freed from their intellectual and spiritual enslavement.
Hutch's Boy: Louie, other than your obvious bias, on what basis do you dismiss Sir William Ramsay's lifetime work, and Josh McDowell's Evidence that Demands a Verdict? Which claims does "science" dispute? You are totally ignorant of both works, yet you dismiss them? And I am the one who is led around by emotions.
Go ahead, Mr. Science (lol...hope you don't mind), give me the specific portions of their work that you reject.
You can't Louie, because you're ignorant. It's that simple. I have read the skeptical arguments and can lay claim to their shortcomings. You just spew hatred about things you are ignorant of. Read them and get back to me.
the Gibroney Hunter: I haven't dismissed anyone's work, only reminded you of the illegitimacy of the bible in terms of its acceptability as a historic document, by strict scientific standards. It's you who's transparently attempted to deflect points and steer the debate into the laps of your two favorite authors, rather than focus on uncomfortable facts. No matter how historically accurate or thorough a passage of the bible is, it still must be corroborated by other, non-religious texts, physical evidence, etc.
What exactly are Ramsay's and McDowell's claims, other than that they're believers? Is it that they have incontrovertible scientific evidence of Jesus' existence and godliness? If so, I think you would have mentioned it by now, as I've asked this question at least twice already.
In what way have I spewed hatred? You christians are always so dramatic.
Hutch's Boy: I don't find the facts uncomfortable at all. Actually, I am trying to base my arguments entirely on facts. That's how I became a Christian, Louie. Let me start over.
You assert, without evidence, that the Bible is an invalid historic document. I mention Ramsay and McDowell, for two reasons:
Ramsay spent his prestigious career as a world renowned archaeologist (probably the most important of the late 19th/early 20th century) coming to the conclusion, ENTIRELY THROUGH HIS SCIENTIFIC WORK (emphasis not yelling), that the Bible IS a historically valid argument. To the extent that he names Dr. Luke the greatest historian in the ancient world.
You don't like what the Bible says, so you claim it's not historic. Who do I believe, Louie, who has NEVER done any scientific analysis, or Ramsay, who dedicated his entire life's work?
Now let's go on to McDowell. His book is a detailed compilation of manuscript evidence. The book establishes the credibility of the current text by virtue of tens of thousands of pieces of manuscript evidence. (By comparison, the nearest second place document are Homers works, which we have a total of 600 or so pieces of manuscript. Most ancient texts are less than 100 pieces or so. Compared to 45,000 you can see why any honest person would drop their claims about authenticity).
None of this proves that Jesus wasn't a madman. It simply places the light of scientific discovery on the FACT that the Bible is a period authentic document.
Your claims are baseless and cannot be supported with evidence. I could give you evidence until the cows come home, but you don't seem to be interested in facts. You just want to say the Bible is not a historic document, but you have no basis to do so, other than your contempt.
Now, lecture me about science again, sir.
Incidentally, that article is noteworthy. It points specifically to the fact that the notion of a suffering messiah predates Christ. Whether or not you know it, you have actually supported the identity of Jesus as Messiah. It's an inside argument, but thank you for supporting my position. The scrolls at Qumran are HUGE in establishing the validity of the Book of Isaiah, as well as some other texts. Major discovery.
I wanted to give you a specific example of archeaologic discovery. There are literally thousands, but here's one:
Pontius Pilate. Skeptics in the 19th century claimed for years he didn't exist. This criticism was compelling and held up in peoples mind for a long time. In fact, the more we uncovered in archaeologic digs, the more compelling the argument became.... See More
There was simply NO EVIDENCE for Pilate's existence.
Then something happened. There was an ampitheater which was unearthed, which had stone benches for seating. One of the benches was overturned and on the underside was a decree from Ceaser (I think it was Tiberius). Pilate had so angered him (in the Gospel accounts, it indicates that Ceaser was already angry with Pilate, which is why he caved to political pressure) that Ceaser gave a decree to wipe out every memory of Pilate from the Roman Empire.
Pilate was erased. In fact, for years the only record of Pilate was the Gospels. It looked like a myth, but science prevailed.
COUNTLESS examples like it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate
The Hutch: "You don't like what the Bible says, so you claim it's not historic. Who do I believe, Louie, who has NEVER done any scientific analysis, or Ramsay, who dedicated his entire life's work?"
Don't believe either of them. Just do what I did and look at all the available evidence for the christian mythos vs. the natural world. The latter turns up mountains of evidence. The former has a book. One, single, solitary book with, as Lou has strenuously pointed out, is not corroborated by physical evidence or other non-religious or historical text.
Ramsay may have put together a pretty impressive document, I don't know. I haven't read it. But he is just one man. Science demands not the opinion of one man, but actual, quantifiable evidence. Lou keeps asking for some of the evidence that Ramsay found, but you haven't set anything compelling to that effect yet.
That said, I do think Lou more than occasionally demands far too much evidence. 9/11, for example, from my perspective has more than enough evidence to support the the bulk of the official story, as does the moon landing and a number of other conspiracy theories. The analogy of the butler murder works here: we have video of the butler getting a knife, the butler walking into the parlor room, and video of the butler walking out moments later wiping off a bloody knife and going about his business. Sure, we don't have video of the actual murder that took place in the parlor, and some people might scream their heads off that something else could have happened in that parlor, but from my perspective, there's more than enough evidence to indict the butler.
Anyhow, this debate, as fun as it is to read, is precisely why I call Obama a centrist. Fact of the matter is, America's a big place with a lot of ideas. You could be far more left than Obama is (and oh how I wish he was) and, according to various gallup polls on various issues, a good size portion of the populace _is_ more left. But the same could be said about being more right.
It leaves Obama dead center, leaning very slightly left on a few issues.
This is, of course, taking for granted the whole left/right political spectrum which we all know is bullshit but I use here just for the sake of making a general point.
Hutch's Boy: John, do you want a list of the people who have dedicated their lives to this research? There are libraries full of them. Your sources, if you look around, are circular. The historic argument has been played, replayed and replayed again. Each time the textual and archaeological evidence has come up in support of the Bible's historic claims.
The Bible is not a history book. But, it does cite specific events in history. Where it cites those events, the evidence has supported those claims. You, like most atheists, point to a thread of defeated arguments (by defeated, I mean the actual facts point in the other direction, but are simply ignored) and act like the case has been closed.
For years, Isaiah was written after Christ died. Then the Dead Sea Scrolls show up, VERIFYING Isaiah 53, which predates Jesus. The evidence is so compelling that skeptics immediately invent from whole cloth another set of "explanations" because the conclusion isn't palatable.
Why haven't you read any supporting documents, John? The world is full of them. It's simple. You don't like the idea, so you dismiss it without a careful examination of the truth.
That is the only thing that separates our conclusions. Think about it.
The Gibroney Hunter: Here's Gordon Stein's devastating critique of McDowell's work.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/jesus.shtml
"9/11, for example, from my perspective has more than enough evidence to support the the bulk of the official story..."
Like what? What evidence are you referring to?
Refer to the facebook message I sent you months ago (that was never responded to) for a reminder of some of the key discrepencied within the official story.
Be sure not to follow Chris's footsteps and pit your faith in the word of authority, like in the case of osama bin laden's "confession" video, which later unbiased translations (by the Germans) revealed that he merely mentioned the attacks, not confessed. Combined with the fact that the individual in the video is very clearly a body double (google it if you doubt). Combined with the fact of his verified statement on the day of 9/11, denying any responsibility and pointing the finger at criminals within our own government and private sector.
The Hutch: "The evidence is so compelling that skeptics immediately invent from whole cloth another set of "explanations" because the conclusion isn't palatable."
Chris, this is how science works. You have described it's fundamental philosophy. Form a hypothesis. Gather evidence. Does the evidence agree with the hypothesis? If so keep gathering evidence, looking for holes or cracks in the hypothesis. If not, form a new hypothesis. Repeat.
God is not a viable hypothesis because it cannot be tested with what we currently know about the universe. Science deals with the natural world. The observable and provable. Even if God were to come down to earth, perform some miracles, and walk around, Science would form hypotheses on how this is possible and fit what is happening in with our current data set on the natural world. Maybe we'd have to dismantle physics or something. Guaranteed, someone would want to get in there with an electron microscope.
Point is... the supernatural and science do not mix. They cannot mix. If you want to base your life on the bible and God, that's fine with me provided that you do not try to legislate your beliefs and you don't go trying to use science to prove your faith. Seeing as you do both, it makes my head a bit explodey.
Lou, I read the link you sent months ago, I just didn't respond because I didn't find it all that compelling and I knew I'd be unable to convince you of anything other than what you believe. I agree that it's more than possible or even likely that Osama was a bogeyman. But to insinuate that the US government was anything other than incompetent in the whole saga, I think, is too much.
Hutch's Boy: Louie, this isn't devastating at all. In fact, the author has a number of his facts incorrect in this article and is stating them as absolutes. One right off the bat is the idea that there was no death penalty in Jewish law for blasphemy. That's simply not true. Irregardless, he highlights an important issue.
Before you draw a conclusion, you should examine all of the evidence. John's post about science is compelling, except that he leaves off the imperative that all evidence be examined, not simply that which is convenient to your argument.
Louie, this article hits on Josephus as a historical reference for the existence of Jesus. Notice that I never mentioned Josephus? Nor did I mention Pliny the Younger. In both cases, I think there is too much open to question to utilize their references to Jesus (especially Josephus).
But the fact is, it's not necessary. McDowell does an excellent job highlighting the massive amount of manuscript evidence to verify that the modern version of the Bible is reliable to the original writings.
Ramsay's work demonstrates those writings are period authentic.
Can you really call your opinion honest, when you have only examined evidence that fits your conclusions?
The Gibroney Hunter: You became a Christian based on facts? I thought the whole thing is based on faith? I'm not sure I follow.
The evidence that the bible cannot simply be taken at face value, scientifically, lies in the very nature of the book; a book of faith. This does not mean that it should be ignored or excluded from historic or archaeological endeavors, only that it cannot be viewed as an independent historical text. The information within it simply must be corroborated. No further evidence is required to understand this point. A 6th grade level education in the scientific method, however, is.
"Who do I believe, Louie.. or Ramsay"
Neither. You steer your beliefs toward the facts and the scientific method. Nowhere else. This incessant urge to identify with an authority figure or leader is one of the most dangerous aspects of the Christian psychosis.
Thank you for the brief biography of your favorite authors, I'm afraid, however, that it still proved nothing. When I speak of scientific evidence, I'm referring to more than simply a tally of who's analyzed the most ancient manuscripts. There's also physical archaeological evidence, which is prized over any ancient writing alone.
"Notice that I never mentioned Josephus? Nor did I mention Pliny the Younger."
But McDowell does. And since the crux of your "argument" seems to be the fact that this guy wrote a book (a book about another faith-based book, which is kindof the point), the criticisms are relevent. Also you are aware that Gordan Stein's criticism was written in 1982, and also isn't assessed specifically to you, correct? So you may not have mentioned josephus or Pliny the younger because you're already aware if how shabby the evidence is, but the fact is that most of your peers would and do mention them, as fraudulent and ridiculous they are as historical references.
Hutch's Boy: Louie, the archeological evidence points to the Bible being period authentic. Luke mentions very specific details about regional governments, structures, etc...as do many of the OT texts. The article you linked to points to a problem in one area of McDowell's work. Hardly damning.
Trust me, Louie, I have more than a cursory knowledge of the scientific method. I don't have an advanced degree, but my undergrad studies carry me beyond most.
But again, it is not I who refuses to examine the evidence. Can you illuminate me as to the archeaological evidence that refutes the Biblical historic account? I have given you the existence of Pontius Pilate. Now give me the refutation.
The Gibroney Hunter: Well you kind of guarantee not being able to convince me otherwise by not responding. Also I was referring to a brief summary of some key points I sent you, not a link, but whatever.
You can be as uncompelled as you want, but you know as well as I that, scientifically, saying "I'm not impressed" is a good start, but otherwise pretty meaningless. As a believer of the official story, you're relying on litle else than the word of your government, and the dismissal of an ever growing body of contradictory evidence as merely coincidences. It seems that the standard coincidence theorist's response to such damning facts like the insider trading that went on on wall street in anticipation of the attacks, or the presence of nano thermite, a military grade explosive, at ground zero, is: "I don't know how to explain that, nor do I care to."
This lazy and unscientific approach to the matter was easy to pull off for quite a few years, but with the list of architects and engineers supporting a new investigation already past 1,000 (closer to 1,500 by now) it's becoming more and more difficult for people in denial to hide behind the "lack of professional credibility" defense.
Insinuate? There's no I insinuation here, friend. Criminal elements within our own government are responsible for 9/11. The evidence is conclusive. I do admire how closely you follow the mainstream media's strategy of character attack, though, intentionally choosing words like "insinuate" to give the impression that there's something sneaky or backhanded about my views.
The remarkable thing is that while parrotting the wholly unsupported "incompetence" theory, many adherents to the official story will casually dismiss the extensive body of evidence indicating the opposite (like osama being visited by C.I.A agents in a Dubai hospital just weeks before the attacks, for example), apparently without realizing that the evidence disproving the official "19 hijackers" conspiracy theory is superior both quantitatively and qualitatively.
For example, are you aware that the supposed lead hijacker, Mohammed attah, was a known drug runner and C.I.A asset who had a stripper girlfriend and loved pork chops? Now I'm no detective, but that sure don't sound like the profile of a Muslim extremist prepared for a martyrdom mission. Sounds a bit more like a patsy and peon who probably wasn't aware of the true nature of his circumstances. Study of the methodology of clandestine intelligence organizations such as the C.I.A (who wield more power than official governments) is necessary in order for these type of false flag terror attacks to be properly understood.
The Gibroney Hunter: The many faces of Osama Bin Boogeyman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBcceMCIWd0
The Gibroney Hunter: The issue isn't the historical content of the bible. Indeed, much of it is valid. The problem, like **** said, is that you seem to be asserting that science has somehow proven the validity of your faith, which is not only false but in a sense quite absurd, because why would an adherent to a faith-based system be so desperately searching for secular confirmation anyway?
There's just no way around it. You can believe whatever you want, but to bring science into a defense of your fate is and always has been self defeating for Christians. But this fact shouldn't dissuade the truly faithful, since they have.. Yknow.. Faith.
"Can you illuminate me as to the archeaological evidence that refutes the Biblical historic account?"
Yes. Dinosaurs.
Hutch's Boy: That's not all you got...You also got the lowest debt rating since the Civil War. Congratulations!!
The Gibroney Hunter: And don't forget a bigger better Patriot Act. You the man, Barry!
The Hutch: Bigger? I thought it was just resigned as the same bill?
In any case, I'll never get the exact president I want nor will you. Guys like **** would take up arms and revolt. Obama is, whether we like it or not, a centrist. Change is gradual. Bitching about it and writing off Obama as some sort of failed fascist solves nothing. All we can do is keep trying to elect more and more progressive politicians each year.
Hutch's Boy: WTF?? Did you just call Obama a centrist? You HAVE to be shitting me. Right now, the Federal government is controlling 48% of the US economy. We are more socialist than almost all of Europe.
Umm, so other than Stalin, who's a leftist to you?
The Gibroney Hunter: First he renewed it, and now recently expanded some of the (illegal and unconstitutional) wiretapping provisions. This isn't about finding your dream president, it's about the fact that Obama very obviously works for the same internationalist criminals that Bush worked for. Most people in this country are so preoccupied with their pathetic search... See More for a national daddy figure that they're not even aware that the constitution very clearly limits the authority of the president. Too bad Barry seems to be following Bush's lead, and executive ordering the fuck out of us until the republic's dead.
Other than the fact that the Huff. Post told you so, why do you find the comparisons between Obama and other totalitarian, fascist leaders so farfetched? Is it the incessant push toward consolidation of power in the hands of a centralized government? Or the maintaining of foreign wars for resources? Or maybe some people have been so effectively brain-neutered by the mainstream media to actually believe that historical precedent no longer applies to us, and that no political and economic predators will ever set their gaze upon us, the special people. I swear, McLiberalism is worse than Christianity sometimes.
Hutch's Boy: Louie, what exactly is your problem with Christianity? Is it the hospitals and charities that dot the world? Or perhaps it is the very notion of liberty which it promotes? Aren't you in favor of such liberties? Remember, without the Declaration, the Constitution is an empty document.
****, I couldn't resist.
The Hutch: By all means, Chris. The only thing I enjoy more than debating with you is watching other people debate with you.
Lout, I'm not sure why you seem to think that taking the most extreme point of view possible and lacking any and all empathy for other mindsets is the best possible path to progress. It's really not that black and white.
The Gibroney Hunter: The bloodsoaked fairytale that is Christianity has crushed human liberty and potential, along with every other state sponsored religion of the world. The amount of children and innocence destroyed by this perverted faith, whether it be the uneducated teenagers tricked into fighting the 'evildoers' in the desert, or the women who are guilt tripped into functioning as broodmares for the state, far outweighs any competition from us heathens. But here's the short answer to your question of what my problem with Christianity is: It isn't true. As in, it is false. The story of jesus predates Jesus by millenia. This means, quite obviously, that the story and character traits of jesus (born of a virgin, etc) were simply prescribed to him, if he even existed at all (which is unlikely since none of the prominent historians of the time mention him as an individual, only as a concept (I.e, "the Christ"). Oh yeah, then there's the whole "priests porking children almost constantly" thing.
Hutch's Boy: The only fairy tales referenced above Louie, are your own. It would be fairly easy to pick them apart piece by piece. Let's first deal with your assertion that Christianity is responsible for more bloodshed than the heathens. Really? Mao, 65million, atheist. Stalin, 45 million, atheist. Hitler: 26 million? (this is off the top of my head) pantheist... See More, which technically qualifies as a heathen. Are you sure you don't want to withdraw that ridiculous comment?
In fact, your comments all have about the same level of credibility. Which religions do you claim predate the tale of Christ? What textual criticisms are you applying to the source documents? Are you willing to apply the same standards to the 45,000 pieces of manuscript evidence related to the NT? I seriously doubt it, as you seem to have an aversion to legitimate scholarly works.
Take some time, do some homework, offer some legitimate facts, not this dribble. Then we can have an honest dialogue, not a rock throwing contest.
The Gibroney Hunter: I'm not taking the most extreme view possible, you've just been trained to believe that anyone who's not regurgitating mainstream media double-speak must be in some way extreme. In reality, your belief that this Obama character came out of nowhere to slay the neocon giants and get this country "back on track" is far more extreme than my sober, fact-based assertion that people and organizations in possession of vast power and resources will do what they must to preserve it, including staging false flag attacks and then propping up a fake liberal president as damage control to pacify an increasingly restless population. My views seem extreme only to the sheltered naifs dependent on the mainstream "go back to sleep" media.
The Gibroney Hunter: I can see that your emotion has you blinded on this issue, which is why I'll simply ignore your limp-wristed criticisms. Those numbers must be off the very tippy top of your head, as you seem to have conveniently omitted some of the biggest, like, for example, the American genocides, all committed in the name of your fictional religion (which if we were to tally up, probably would total close to a half billion people, immediately proving you wrong) or the crusades, or our wars for empire against communism, in which fighting the "godless" commies was a major theme. There are many more examples, but I'm afraid I'm not going to play personal encyclopedia to someone who resorts to the mindless chant "prove it!".. The last refuge if a man who knows he's wrong. My statements are so glaringly obvious as to not require footnotes of citation. If for some reason you're not educated enough to know of Mithra, who was born of a virgin, crucified and resurrected 3 says later, or the Egyptian god Isis, also born of a virgin named Myra and resurrected, or the numerous Hindu gods featuring the same played out story, then I'm afraid you require more assistance than I can provide in facebook comments.
Of course, as a fellow advocate of true science, I'm sure I don't need to remind you that the bible cannot stand independently as an historical text, because of the obvious likelihood of bias. It can reinforce other, well... Real historical texts from the time (of which there are many.. None of which mentioning Jesus) but I don't need to address one word of the NT, since, quite simply, it does not pass the scientific/historical litmus test.
The Hutch: Lou, the difference here, is that while I assert my views and try to defend them where I can or reassess them when I can't, you seem so completely and utterly convinced of what you believe that there's no room for other modes of thinking.
Such certainty in the face of so little actual knowledge (in the Socratic sense, not in the "you're stupid" sense) simply comes off as radical and you do your own positions little service.
Also, Chris, a lot of what Lou is referencing re: the Jesus mythos is in that book I mentioned, Joseph Campbell's Hero of a Thousand Faces. Definitely worth checking out.
The Gibroney Hunter: Actually, places where there are no room for other modes of thinking are, for example, the Huff. Post, who asked Jesse Ventura to write an article for them, then censored him when he discussed 9/11. Or pretty much anywhere else in the mainstream media. I am passionate in my views, but not rigid. I acknowledge that I have been wrong in the past and may be wrong again, like any really honest thinker would. But with that said, your criticism seems to be less about my beliefs per se, and more about the fact that I believe them so passionately.
The Hutch's Boy: Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight...JN 18:36
Louie, are you trying to bully me? LOL...it won't work. Besides, it's entirely ineffective (experience speaking here) and it undermines your credibility. In other words, you are among friends, so relax.
Speaking of your facts...your arguments seem to be schizophrenic and somewhat contradictory. Let's deal with one issue at a time, okay? Your comparison to "US genocide" to the killings of Mao, Stalin and Hitler causes me to chuckle and shudder at the same time. Do you really believe what you said? I did some follow up, and the actual numbers are:
Mao: 50-78 million people murdered
Stalin: 23 million people murdered (including the purges)
Hitler: 12 million people murdered
I'd like to see specific numbers from the "American genocides" and not baseless emotional rants.
But there is another component of your claim that I find curious. Your answer carries with it the assertion that the US is a Christian nation? Wow, you and Pat Robertson have more in common than I thought. Even I don't believe that. It's true that our foundational documents rely heavily on the Bible, but it's actually a compromise between Christians of many denominations, Deists and a few Jewish people.
With regards to the Crusades, or other wars you have pointed to, please note my first sentence. It's Jesus' answer to Pilate when asked if he were a king. Do you see Jesus' reply? How can one possibly claim to fight in the name of Christianity, when Christ disavowed himself of any such action? In fact, he chose NOT to defend himself, when Pilate was desperate for an excuse to let him go.
That's actually an important distinction, when analyzing the Crusades. When the Christians killed in the name of Christ, they did so in direct contradiction to Jesus' life and words. The Muslims, however, were following the exact example of Mohammed himself. Worth noting, I think.
Would you care to address your other points? They also have some glaring difficulties. You should know, Louie, that I haven't stumbled into my set of beliefs. I am also happy to carry this discussion to a deep level, as it is always a learning and enriching experience. Please respond. I'm looking forward to it.
PS...In case you two are interested, the arguments of that book are right out of the French and German Enlightenment movement of the late 18th/early 19th Centuries. Most of their claims held a lot of weight, until the British began archaeological study of Israel. They are actually far less palatable today, but I'd be happy to address them.
The Gibroney Hunter: No, I'm not attempting to bully you through facebook. That would be retarded. If you are being bullied though, it's by facts and reality, not by me.
Why you would chuckle over the mass murder of an estimated 113 million people is beyond me, as it is both unfunny and devastating to your argument, even without the mention of the countless other mass murders and wars committed in the name of god.
I'm not sure what your point is, in engaging in hair-splitting over whether or not our country is officially (whatever that means) Christian, as we all know that god and patriotism are always used as motivators to trick people into fighting in wars. So "officially" Christian or not, your god and bible are an indispensable part of the military industrial complex.
We all know that Jesus was a pacifist. And we all also know that nearly every single one of his followers through the ages have not been. So while your observations comparing muhammad and Jesus are correct, I'm afraid your point is moot, since the end result is the same: people tricked into killing other people because of a book. But while we're comparing the two religions, it's worth noting that the prophet Muhammad has the advantage over Jesus of actually having existed and being a legitimate historical figure. That is also worth noting.
You're not the first to try to dismiss the historical truth about the Jesus story as some fad of the enlightenment, as this period was when these hidden origins of Christianity began to be more widely known. But no amount of archaeological digging can change the widely recognized fact that Jesus is a hybrid of many dieties. I'm curious, what specific artifacts did the British produce that disprove the claim that the Jesus story predates Christianity by millenia?
Hutch's Boy: "And we all also know that nearly every single one of his followers through the ages have not been."
You know, I almost doubted this comment, until I saw the picture of Mother Theresa choking a small Nepali girl for using improper grammar when she begged for bread!
Again, Louie, no credibility. Seriously, you shouldn't throw bombs without knowledge. The church has been engaged in human rights causes since its inception. I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the #1 casualty of the Roman Catholic Church are Christians. In the case of the RCC, it is primarily a secular humanist political movement, as much as it is about the Christian faith.
" the prophet Muhammad has the advantage over Jesus of actually having existed"
Not a serious scholarly argument, given the massive amount of manuscript evidence from the NT and archaeological evidence supporting the gospel accounts. I will defer to Sir William Ramsay's work on the book of Acts and Luke. There is SERIOUS scholarly work on the subject. Those who claim Jesus to be a mythical historical figure are also big on fake lunar walk claims, as I understand. Seriously, it's just an angry, ignorant position. It ignores all of the rules for textual criticism and the analysis of ancient history.
It's probably a waste of time, but here's a brief defense of the archeological claims. It's footnoted well, so you can find more in-depth work on the subject if you'd like.
http://www.grmi.org/Richard_Riss/evidences/3trust.html
What you cite are recycled arguments that have been TROUNCED years ago, but are being thrown out there again with the hopes that its followers would choose to embrace ignorance than actually check the facts. There is ample archaeological evidence to support the historic veracity of Luke's account. If you'd like, we can go more in depth on this subject.
As to your final point about the story of Jesus predating his birth by millenia? You and I will have little quarrel here, Louie. It's actually the PRIMARY reason I'm a Christian and not merely a convert to Judaism. Jesus' birth, life and resurrection were indeed specifically spelled out in advance of his life. In fact, I think a better argument against the Bible would be if no hybrids of the story could be found in other civilizations, given the Biblical claim of common origin.
The first time we see the prediction of the virgin birth, for example, is in the Garden of Eden. In Genesis Chapter 3:
GE 3:15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."
The use of the phrase in Hebrew is "seed of the woman" is significant, if you understand it in its context. Only in modern times did Jewish people recognize genealogical lineage through the woman. It was always a patriarchal society (a radical departure is attributable to Christianity, incidentally) an in this context is a direct reference to Eve being a sole progenitor. Worth noting. There are countless other examples from the book of Genesis, whereby the entire gospel message can be derived. But I'm sure you aren't all that well versed on the subject. I'd be happy to enlighten you, if you desire.
The Gibroney Hunter: At this point I'm just amused that you would even attempt to refute the very obvious fact that the vast majority of christians have not practiced pacifism, as Jesus (supposedly) did. The very fact that your rebuttal consists only of a reference to one mother Theresa, is confirmation of how silly your stubborn disagreement on this point is. And let's just skip over any lame response like "yeah but real christians are pacifists." We don't get to cherrypick like that. "real" Christians, just like Sarah Palin's "real" Americans, must view themselves as a whole, and not selectively. Otherwise the very distinction of "Christian" becomes meaningless.
I'm also not sure why you're unaware of the fact that the bible simply does not qualify as a historical text independently. As much fun as it would be to debate this, I'm afraid it's a simple indisputable fact within the fields of of history and archaeology. While Sir William Ramsay's work may be a valid scholarly examination of the bible, it in no way supports your claim that the bible is a valid scholarly work. You're aware that science must be unbiased, correct? You're also aware that the bible, whether you believe the stories or not, is extremely biased, as per the definition of a book of faith? I'd hate to assume otherwise, but your statements leave me little choice.
"There is ample archaeological evidence to support the historic veracity of Luke's account."
Which "lukes account"? Which politicized translation of the account should we go by? Are we beginning to see the problem here? Also, the very act of being ones disciple disqualifies one from taking a truly unbiased scholarly approach to their god. Think about it. If I believed George bush was my god.. Literally.. Then wouldn't I be the very last person you'd turn to for an unbiased account of George bush?
"Those who claim Jesus to be a mythical historical figure are also big on fake lunar walk claims, as I understand."
This is what's called the "guilt by association" technique. When someone cannot counter with facts or superior reasoning, they resort to associations with unrelated, and socially stigmatized beliefs, like Elvis being alive, and what have you. This is the equivalent to being a hack in the field of comedy. Also, I can only laugh when being called crazy by someone who believes in an invisible man in the sky, holding a list of 10 things he doesn't want you to do.
I can only express sympathy at your delusional assertion that the reason that other deities throughout history have had the same story and characteristics of the Sun-God, is because it was all a big cosmic build-up to the real god, who really was born of a virgin, nevermind the numerous other gods to whom this was attributed first. And yes, the crucifixion story predates Christianity, but this time it's the real deal. With all due respect, give me a break. These types of arguments remind me of the small child, having just been told there's no Santa, trying desperately to theorize about how such a fat man really could fit through the chimney. It reflects a state of arrested development, both emotional and intellectual.
Also, you seem to be confused about what it means to "trounce" a belief. You can search til the cows come home for positive confirmation of jesus' existence (which of course you won't find). But that misses the point. You must disprove the existence of the belief on deities like Mithra, Zoroaster, Horus, and various Hindu deities, all predating Jesus and having the same characteristics (which makes sense, since the entire story is based on astronomy/astrology, not an individual)
The Hutch: This argument like the goddam world series and super bowl all wrapped into one awesome facebook thread.
Hutch's Boy: Louie, I'm not sure you know who Sir William Ramsay is. He's actually responsible for most of what we know about Asia Minor and the Roman Empire. He's no lightweight, and I would think his opinion on matters of ancient history would carry a LOT more weight than any document you have referenced. From Wiki:
http://bit.ly/9xPYLV
With regards to Ramsay, I ESPECIALLY love your comment: "You're aware that science must be unbiased, correct? You're also aware that the bible, whether you believe the stories or not, is extremely biased, as per the definition of a book of faith?"
Not only is Ramsay an internationally respected scientist (he was even knighted, dude!) but HE apparently set out with the exact same belief that you expressed above. When he initially went to Israel it was to DISPROVE Luke's writings (Acts and Luke). His conclusion? He believed Dr. Luke to be the greatest and most accurate historian in all of antiquity. Ramsay's conversion to Christianity occurred AFTER he set out to examine the evidence. Something I can say of myself, and frankly something which you have not endeavored to do.
But it sounds like your version of science requires me to disregard the evidence and go with the angry guy who "says it's so". LOL...I hope you appreciate my humor. It's not intended to be completely insulting (just a little insulting).
Seriously, though, you should take a closer look before you lash out. Your "facts" are not based on research. They are based on bogus assertions from angry people who pretend to have the facts.
For example, "Which politicized translation of the account should we go by?"
Are you referring to Textus Receptus, or Wescott and Horts? Do you even know how manuscript evidence is compiled and graded? Are you even mildly aware of the MOUNTAIN of manuscript evidence for the NT verses other works? There are literally TENS OF THOUSANDS of pieces of manuscript evidence (not versions, mind you, but manuscripts) used to compile modern NT texts. Where there are differences, they are actually just spelling or grammar. There have been NO significant conflicts reported by competent scholars. Read Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" for a thorough annotation. Incidentally, Josh's book is actually copies from his doctoral thesis. He was compiling evidence to DISPROVE the Bible through the types of "errors" you misreport. His work has impacted millions..
I think it's time you prove something. You make a lot of sweeping statements and say things like "everybody knows" but so far have offered zero evidence.
You say the crucifiction story predates Christ? Why don't you provide "evidence".
Or, you make the claim that "nearly every single one" of Jesus' disciples have not been pacifists? Oh my...why don't you present me with a study which demonstrates the warlike nature of Christians verses the rest of society. Holy crap that's funny.
Do you know why I picked Mother Theresa? Unlike MOST Christians, she's known for her life accomplishments. Most Christians I know give of themselves and do not seek fame or recognition in return. Maybe my church is the exception, but we rarely set out to murder our fellow man in ours. Hmm...Are you sure the people who fight wars aren't doing it for greed and lust for power?
Anyway, I'd like to see your "evidence" for the pre-Jesus crucifiction stories (along with manuscript references, please), and/or an academic study linking faith to violence.
Good luck.
The Hutch: It is worth noting, Chris, that Mother Theresa is a lot of trumped up nonsense. Christopher Hitchens wrote an expose book on her and there's a lot of stuff in her life that the church doesn't talk about.
In other words, Saint Theresa is no saint.
The Gibroney Hunter: This isn't a popularity contest. Science isn't conducted by reputations, it's conducted with certain unbreakable rules. No matter how big your hard-on for Ramsay is, it will never cange the fact that.. Everybody sing it with me now... The bible is not a valid historical document. I'll ask again, since you didn't answer the first time: exactly what artifact or document was discovered that conclusively proved that Jesus did exist and is god?
You seem to think that a passing reference to an author and his conversion is adequate scientific evidence to support your claim, which could help explain why you're a Christian in the first place, as your desire to be right far outweighs your ability to follow basic scientiic principles.
You appear to be defending Christianity against a charge that wasn't made, namely that Christians are especially warlike, compared to followers of other religions. You took issue with my statement that Christianity, like all other state sponsored religions, is used to manipulate people into fighting wars. Unfortunately this doesn't set Christianity apart from other faiths, only gives it the predictable stink of organized religion.
You need an academic study to understand the reality of the crusades, or the inquisition, or witch trials?
Greed? Lust for power? Uhm, I think you're thinking of the people who start wars, not the people who fight in them. The 18 year old kid from Kentucky who signed up for college money and because his church told him it's the right thing to do, is not going to be rich or powerful, I assure you. Is it just me or are your statements becoming yet more ridiculous?
"Most Christians I know.."
"Maybe my church is the exception.."
Told ya. Told ya you would use the "yeah but REAL Christians are different" routine. I'm very sorry. But you Christians don't get to support war, sexism, bigotry, and rape of children worldwide and then get to be pacifists simply because you like the title.
I've never seen someone who's offered no evidence of their own, other than the quasi-evidence of religious manuscripts, so incessantly demand that the other side produce it. Usually Christians know enough not to tread into scientific waters, since science has this tendency to swiftly and easily dismantle myths, like the Christian myth, or the myth of the official story of 9/11. Also a simple google search for the word "Mithra" or "Horus" should provide you with much of the evidence you need, but here you go. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,893345,00.html
Lashing out? I can't think of more typically Christian behavior than to begin a debate on your faith, and when confronted with the facts to accuse the other side of "lashing out". Telling you the truth about your woefully misguided faith isn't lashing out. It's actually an act of compassion, as my hope is that Christians will be freed from their intellectual and spiritual enslavement.
Hutch's Boy: Louie, other than your obvious bias, on what basis do you dismiss Sir William Ramsay's lifetime work, and Josh McDowell's Evidence that Demands a Verdict? Which claims does "science" dispute? You are totally ignorant of both works, yet you dismiss them? And I am the one who is led around by emotions.
Go ahead, Mr. Science (lol...hope you don't mind), give me the specific portions of their work that you reject.
You can't Louie, because you're ignorant. It's that simple. I have read the skeptical arguments and can lay claim to their shortcomings. You just spew hatred about things you are ignorant of. Read them and get back to me.
the Gibroney Hunter: I haven't dismissed anyone's work, only reminded you of the illegitimacy of the bible in terms of its acceptability as a historic document, by strict scientific standards. It's you who's transparently attempted to deflect points and steer the debate into the laps of your two favorite authors, rather than focus on uncomfortable facts. No matter how historically accurate or thorough a passage of the bible is, it still must be corroborated by other, non-religious texts, physical evidence, etc.
What exactly are Ramsay's and McDowell's claims, other than that they're believers? Is it that they have incontrovertible scientific evidence of Jesus' existence and godliness? If so, I think you would have mentioned it by now, as I've asked this question at least twice already.
In what way have I spewed hatred? You christians are always so dramatic.
Hutch's Boy: I don't find the facts uncomfortable at all. Actually, I am trying to base my arguments entirely on facts. That's how I became a Christian, Louie. Let me start over.
You assert, without evidence, that the Bible is an invalid historic document. I mention Ramsay and McDowell, for two reasons:
Ramsay spent his prestigious career as a world renowned archaeologist (probably the most important of the late 19th/early 20th century) coming to the conclusion, ENTIRELY THROUGH HIS SCIENTIFIC WORK (emphasis not yelling), that the Bible IS a historically valid argument. To the extent that he names Dr. Luke the greatest historian in the ancient world.
You don't like what the Bible says, so you claim it's not historic. Who do I believe, Louie, who has NEVER done any scientific analysis, or Ramsay, who dedicated his entire life's work?
Now let's go on to McDowell. His book is a detailed compilation of manuscript evidence. The book establishes the credibility of the current text by virtue of tens of thousands of pieces of manuscript evidence. (By comparison, the nearest second place document are Homers works, which we have a total of 600 or so pieces of manuscript. Most ancient texts are less than 100 pieces or so. Compared to 45,000 you can see why any honest person would drop their claims about authenticity).
None of this proves that Jesus wasn't a madman. It simply places the light of scientific discovery on the FACT that the Bible is a period authentic document.
Your claims are baseless and cannot be supported with evidence. I could give you evidence until the cows come home, but you don't seem to be interested in facts. You just want to say the Bible is not a historic document, but you have no basis to do so, other than your contempt.
Now, lecture me about science again, sir.
Incidentally, that article is noteworthy. It points specifically to the fact that the notion of a suffering messiah predates Christ. Whether or not you know it, you have actually supported the identity of Jesus as Messiah. It's an inside argument, but thank you for supporting my position. The scrolls at Qumran are HUGE in establishing the validity of the Book of Isaiah, as well as some other texts. Major discovery.
I wanted to give you a specific example of archeaologic discovery. There are literally thousands, but here's one:
Pontius Pilate. Skeptics in the 19th century claimed for years he didn't exist. This criticism was compelling and held up in peoples mind for a long time. In fact, the more we uncovered in archaeologic digs, the more compelling the argument became.... See More
There was simply NO EVIDENCE for Pilate's existence.
Then something happened. There was an ampitheater which was unearthed, which had stone benches for seating. One of the benches was overturned and on the underside was a decree from Ceaser (I think it was Tiberius). Pilate had so angered him (in the Gospel accounts, it indicates that Ceaser was already angry with Pilate, which is why he caved to political pressure) that Ceaser gave a decree to wipe out every memory of Pilate from the Roman Empire.
Pilate was erased. In fact, for years the only record of Pilate was the Gospels. It looked like a myth, but science prevailed.
COUNTLESS examples like it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate
The Hutch: "You don't like what the Bible says, so you claim it's not historic. Who do I believe, Louie, who has NEVER done any scientific analysis, or Ramsay, who dedicated his entire life's work?"
Don't believe either of them. Just do what I did and look at all the available evidence for the christian mythos vs. the natural world. The latter turns up mountains of evidence. The former has a book. One, single, solitary book with, as Lou has strenuously pointed out, is not corroborated by physical evidence or other non-religious or historical text.
Ramsay may have put together a pretty impressive document, I don't know. I haven't read it. But he is just one man. Science demands not the opinion of one man, but actual, quantifiable evidence. Lou keeps asking for some of the evidence that Ramsay found, but you haven't set anything compelling to that effect yet.
That said, I do think Lou more than occasionally demands far too much evidence. 9/11, for example, from my perspective has more than enough evidence to support the the bulk of the official story, as does the moon landing and a number of other conspiracy theories. The analogy of the butler murder works here: we have video of the butler getting a knife, the butler walking into the parlor room, and video of the butler walking out moments later wiping off a bloody knife and going about his business. Sure, we don't have video of the actual murder that took place in the parlor, and some people might scream their heads off that something else could have happened in that parlor, but from my perspective, there's more than enough evidence to indict the butler.
Anyhow, this debate, as fun as it is to read, is precisely why I call Obama a centrist. Fact of the matter is, America's a big place with a lot of ideas. You could be far more left than Obama is (and oh how I wish he was) and, according to various gallup polls on various issues, a good size portion of the populace _is_ more left. But the same could be said about being more right.
It leaves Obama dead center, leaning very slightly left on a few issues.
This is, of course, taking for granted the whole left/right political spectrum which we all know is bullshit but I use here just for the sake of making a general point.
Hutch's Boy: John, do you want a list of the people who have dedicated their lives to this research? There are libraries full of them. Your sources, if you look around, are circular. The historic argument has been played, replayed and replayed again. Each time the textual and archaeological evidence has come up in support of the Bible's historic claims.
The Bible is not a history book. But, it does cite specific events in history. Where it cites those events, the evidence has supported those claims. You, like most atheists, point to a thread of defeated arguments (by defeated, I mean the actual facts point in the other direction, but are simply ignored) and act like the case has been closed.
For years, Isaiah was written after Christ died. Then the Dead Sea Scrolls show up, VERIFYING Isaiah 53, which predates Jesus. The evidence is so compelling that skeptics immediately invent from whole cloth another set of "explanations" because the conclusion isn't palatable.
Why haven't you read any supporting documents, John? The world is full of them. It's simple. You don't like the idea, so you dismiss it without a careful examination of the truth.
That is the only thing that separates our conclusions. Think about it.
The Gibroney Hunter: Here's Gordon Stein's devastating critique of McDowell's work.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/jesus.shtml
"9/11, for example, from my perspective has more than enough evidence to support the the bulk of the official story..."
Like what? What evidence are you referring to?
Refer to the facebook message I sent you months ago (that was never responded to) for a reminder of some of the key discrepencied within the official story.
Be sure not to follow Chris's footsteps and pit your faith in the word of authority, like in the case of osama bin laden's "confession" video, which later unbiased translations (by the Germans) revealed that he merely mentioned the attacks, not confessed. Combined with the fact that the individual in the video is very clearly a body double (google it if you doubt). Combined with the fact of his verified statement on the day of 9/11, denying any responsibility and pointing the finger at criminals within our own government and private sector.
The Hutch: "The evidence is so compelling that skeptics immediately invent from whole cloth another set of "explanations" because the conclusion isn't palatable."
Chris, this is how science works. You have described it's fundamental philosophy. Form a hypothesis. Gather evidence. Does the evidence agree with the hypothesis? If so keep gathering evidence, looking for holes or cracks in the hypothesis. If not, form a new hypothesis. Repeat.
God is not a viable hypothesis because it cannot be tested with what we currently know about the universe. Science deals with the natural world. The observable and provable. Even if God were to come down to earth, perform some miracles, and walk around, Science would form hypotheses on how this is possible and fit what is happening in with our current data set on the natural world. Maybe we'd have to dismantle physics or something. Guaranteed, someone would want to get in there with an electron microscope.
Point is... the supernatural and science do not mix. They cannot mix. If you want to base your life on the bible and God, that's fine with me provided that you do not try to legislate your beliefs and you don't go trying to use science to prove your faith. Seeing as you do both, it makes my head a bit explodey.
Lou, I read the link you sent months ago, I just didn't respond because I didn't find it all that compelling and I knew I'd be unable to convince you of anything other than what you believe. I agree that it's more than possible or even likely that Osama was a bogeyman. But to insinuate that the US government was anything other than incompetent in the whole saga, I think, is too much.
Hutch's Boy: Louie, this isn't devastating at all. In fact, the author has a number of his facts incorrect in this article and is stating them as absolutes. One right off the bat is the idea that there was no death penalty in Jewish law for blasphemy. That's simply not true. Irregardless, he highlights an important issue.
Before you draw a conclusion, you should examine all of the evidence. John's post about science is compelling, except that he leaves off the imperative that all evidence be examined, not simply that which is convenient to your argument.
Louie, this article hits on Josephus as a historical reference for the existence of Jesus. Notice that I never mentioned Josephus? Nor did I mention Pliny the Younger. In both cases, I think there is too much open to question to utilize their references to Jesus (especially Josephus).
But the fact is, it's not necessary. McDowell does an excellent job highlighting the massive amount of manuscript evidence to verify that the modern version of the Bible is reliable to the original writings.
Ramsay's work demonstrates those writings are period authentic.
Can you really call your opinion honest, when you have only examined evidence that fits your conclusions?
The Gibroney Hunter: You became a Christian based on facts? I thought the whole thing is based on faith? I'm not sure I follow.
The evidence that the bible cannot simply be taken at face value, scientifically, lies in the very nature of the book; a book of faith. This does not mean that it should be ignored or excluded from historic or archaeological endeavors, only that it cannot be viewed as an independent historical text. The information within it simply must be corroborated. No further evidence is required to understand this point. A 6th grade level education in the scientific method, however, is.
"Who do I believe, Louie.. or Ramsay"
Neither. You steer your beliefs toward the facts and the scientific method. Nowhere else. This incessant urge to identify with an authority figure or leader is one of the most dangerous aspects of the Christian psychosis.
Thank you for the brief biography of your favorite authors, I'm afraid, however, that it still proved nothing. When I speak of scientific evidence, I'm referring to more than simply a tally of who's analyzed the most ancient manuscripts. There's also physical archaeological evidence, which is prized over any ancient writing alone.
"Notice that I never mentioned Josephus? Nor did I mention Pliny the Younger."
But McDowell does. And since the crux of your "argument" seems to be the fact that this guy wrote a book (a book about another faith-based book, which is kindof the point), the criticisms are relevent. Also you are aware that Gordan Stein's criticism was written in 1982, and also isn't assessed specifically to you, correct? So you may not have mentioned josephus or Pliny the younger because you're already aware if how shabby the evidence is, but the fact is that most of your peers would and do mention them, as fraudulent and ridiculous they are as historical references.
Hutch's Boy: Louie, the archeological evidence points to the Bible being period authentic. Luke mentions very specific details about regional governments, structures, etc...as do many of the OT texts. The article you linked to points to a problem in one area of McDowell's work. Hardly damning.
Trust me, Louie, I have more than a cursory knowledge of the scientific method. I don't have an advanced degree, but my undergrad studies carry me beyond most.
But again, it is not I who refuses to examine the evidence. Can you illuminate me as to the archeaological evidence that refutes the Biblical historic account? I have given you the existence of Pontius Pilate. Now give me the refutation.
The Gibroney Hunter: Well you kind of guarantee not being able to convince me otherwise by not responding. Also I was referring to a brief summary of some key points I sent you, not a link, but whatever.
You can be as uncompelled as you want, but you know as well as I that, scientifically, saying "I'm not impressed" is a good start, but otherwise pretty meaningless. As a believer of the official story, you're relying on litle else than the word of your government, and the dismissal of an ever growing body of contradictory evidence as merely coincidences. It seems that the standard coincidence theorist's response to such damning facts like the insider trading that went on on wall street in anticipation of the attacks, or the presence of nano thermite, a military grade explosive, at ground zero, is: "I don't know how to explain that, nor do I care to."
This lazy and unscientific approach to the matter was easy to pull off for quite a few years, but with the list of architects and engineers supporting a new investigation already past 1,000 (closer to 1,500 by now) it's becoming more and more difficult for people in denial to hide behind the "lack of professional credibility" defense.
Insinuate? There's no I insinuation here, friend. Criminal elements within our own government are responsible for 9/11. The evidence is conclusive. I do admire how closely you follow the mainstream media's strategy of character attack, though, intentionally choosing words like "insinuate" to give the impression that there's something sneaky or backhanded about my views.
The remarkable thing is that while parrotting the wholly unsupported "incompetence" theory, many adherents to the official story will casually dismiss the extensive body of evidence indicating the opposite (like osama being visited by C.I.A agents in a Dubai hospital just weeks before the attacks, for example), apparently without realizing that the evidence disproving the official "19 hijackers" conspiracy theory is superior both quantitatively and qualitatively.
For example, are you aware that the supposed lead hijacker, Mohammed attah, was a known drug runner and C.I.A asset who had a stripper girlfriend and loved pork chops? Now I'm no detective, but that sure don't sound like the profile of a Muslim extremist prepared for a martyrdom mission. Sounds a bit more like a patsy and peon who probably wasn't aware of the true nature of his circumstances. Study of the methodology of clandestine intelligence organizations such as the C.I.A (who wield more power than official governments) is necessary in order for these type of false flag terror attacks to be properly understood.
The Gibroney Hunter: The many faces of Osama Bin Boogeyman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBcceMCIWd0
The Gibroney Hunter: The issue isn't the historical content of the bible. Indeed, much of it is valid. The problem, like **** said, is that you seem to be asserting that science has somehow proven the validity of your faith, which is not only false but in a sense quite absurd, because why would an adherent to a faith-based system be so desperately searching for secular confirmation anyway?
There's just no way around it. You can believe whatever you want, but to bring science into a defense of your fate is and always has been self defeating for Christians. But this fact shouldn't dissuade the truly faithful, since they have.. Yknow.. Faith.
"Can you illuminate me as to the archeaological evidence that refutes the Biblical historic account?"
Yes. Dinosaurs.
Monday, January 18, 2010
Guest Post from Michael The Patriot Blogger: 12 Signs That 2010 Is Going To Be A Really, Really Bad Year For The Democrats And The Obama Admin.
The following is a guest post from [self described] conservative blogger, Michael Snyder, who lives and works in Arlington, Virginia. More of his work can be found at his daily news blog (http://themostimportantnews.com/) and on his blog about conservative politics (http://thetruthwins.com/).
While I myself am adamant about a strict non partisan approach to editorials, lest we fall into the all-too-familiar traps of the false left-right paradigm, I'm always enthusiastic about the sharing of ideas, such a simple and easy thing to do, but so vital to our Republic's survival. That said, I feel that any singular focus on 'this' or 'that' administration is bound to be self-defeating, as the incremental tyranny being imposed by the globalist bankers continues on course, regardless of whether we're currently being sold a line from Dems or Repubs. Many of the points made, however, are quite valid. Enjoy.
12 Signs That 2010 Is Going To Be A Really, Really Bad Year For The Democrats And The Obama Administration
The 2010 election is still almost 10 months away, but already every indication is that if the election was held today, the Democrats would suffer a crushing defeat. So will things get better for the Democrats by the time election day rolls around? Well, actually the truth is that things are only likely to get worse for the Democrats and the Obama administration in 2010. As the U.S. economy continues to fall apart, and as health care and national security continue to take center stage on the national scene, an increasing number of voters are likely to become disenfranchised with the Democratic Party. The following are 12 signs that 2010 is going to be a really, really bad year for the Democrats and the Obama administration....
#1) Health care "reform" has been a total nightmare for Obama and the Democrats. The majority of Americans have been horrified to learn that the plan put forward by the Democrats will make purchasing health insurance mandatory, will raise taxes, will give the government unprecedented control over health care decisions, will result in much fewer health care choices for the average American and will push U.S. government deficits through the roof. Approval ratings for the health care "reform" bill have been hovering in the 30s, and considering that this is the centerpiece of the Democratic agenda, this is a really, really bad sign for Obama and the Democrats.
#2) In fact, more Americans than ever are sick and tired of the financial mess that the U.S. government is getting us all into. The truth is that the U.S. government is drowning under an absolute mountain of debt and all of the spending that Barack Obama is doing is only making it worse. To finance this debt, the U.S. Treasury has been forced to issue so many new bonds that the rest of the world cannot possibly buy them all. So who is buying them all up? The Federal Reserve. In fact, the Fed is now purchasing approximately 80 of all new U.S. debt.
#3) But even with all of this reckless government spending the unemployment situation in the U.S. is still absolutely brutal. When even Wal-Mart is closing stores you know things are really bad. Wal-Mart just announced this past week that it will close 10 money-losing Sam's Club stores and will cut 1,500 jobs in order to reduce costs. So if even Wal-Mart has to shut down stores, what chance do other retailers have?
#4) In fact, some areas of the U.S. are a total economic nightmare at this point. The mayor of Detroit recently said that the real unemployment rate in his city is somewhere up around 50 percent. When things get that bad, the party out of power starts to look better and better.
#5) So just how bad are things when compared to past recessions? During the 2001 recession, the U.S. economy lost 2% of its jobs and it took four years to get them back. This time the U.S. economy has lost more than 5 percent of its jobs and there is no sign that the bleeding of jobs will stop any time soon. Those who do not have jobs are much likelier to consider voting for the party out of power.
#6) The reality is that more Americans are in financial trouble than at any point in recent times. Americans are going broke at a staggering pace. 1.41 million Americans filed for personal bankruptcy in 2009 - a 32 percent increase over 2008. This is not a trend that is going to help the Democrats.
#7) We are also seeing a record number of mortgage defaults. According to a report that was just released, delinquent home loans at government-controlled mortgage finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac surged 20 percent from July to September. In fact, things are such a mess at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that the Obama administration recently removed the caps on the amount of financial assistance that the U.S. government will be giving these two entities. Whether or not Obama created this mess is not the issue. What is the issue is that an increasing number of Americans are blaming him for this mess.
#8) In fact, many analysts believe that the the housing crash is far from over. They say that a massive "second wave" of mortgage defaults is getting ready to hit the U.S. economy starting in 2010. In fact, this "second wave" is so frightening that even 60 minutes is reporting on it. When this second wave does hit, most Americans are going to place responsibility for it in the laps of the Obama administration.
#9) Now there is even concern that the recent global deep freeze could end up seriously affecting food prices in American supermarkets in 2010. As the past several decades have clearly shown, Americans tend to vote according to how their pocketbooks are doing, and if food prices shoot through the roof that will not help Obama and the Democrats at all.
#10) In addition, recent polls indicate that the majority of Americans are so concerned about terrorism that they would be willing to sacrifice certain freedoms in order to feel safer. Considering the fact that terrorism is considered to be an issue that greatly favors the Republicans, this has got to be very concerning to the Democrats.
#11) On the foreign policy front, Obama risks alienating the Jewish vote by continuing to insist that Israel give East Jerusalem to the Palestinians. The truth is that the Jewish vote is crucial for the Democrats and Obama in places like Florida, and by taking such a hardline anti-Israel position, Obama is not winning any new friends in the Jewish community.
#12) Also, Barack Obama is continuing to push for a treaty with Russia that would reduce the U.S. strategic nuclear arsenal to approximately 10 percent of the size that it was at the height of the cold war. Such an irresponsible approach to national security is surely not going to win Obama and the Democrats many friends among moderate voters who are concerned about security issues.
Any way you cut it, 2010 is shaping up to be a very bad year for the Democrats. Barack Obama's approval rating has already been plummeting like a rock, and there does not seem to be much hope of that turning around any time soon. In fact, if the signs above are any indication, the 2010 election could end up being really, really good to the Republicans.
But with Obama still in the White House until at least 2012, will they be able to do much to clean up the mess?
While I myself am adamant about a strict non partisan approach to editorials, lest we fall into the all-too-familiar traps of the false left-right paradigm, I'm always enthusiastic about the sharing of ideas, such a simple and easy thing to do, but so vital to our Republic's survival. That said, I feel that any singular focus on 'this' or 'that' administration is bound to be self-defeating, as the incremental tyranny being imposed by the globalist bankers continues on course, regardless of whether we're currently being sold a line from Dems or Repubs. Many of the points made, however, are quite valid. Enjoy.
-------
12 Signs That 2010 Is Going To Be A Really, Really Bad Year For The Democrats And The Obama Administration
The 2010 election is still almost 10 months away, but already every indication is that if the election was held today, the Democrats would suffer a crushing defeat. So will things get better for the Democrats by the time election day rolls around? Well, actually the truth is that things are only likely to get worse for the Democrats and the Obama administration in 2010. As the U.S. economy continues to fall apart, and as health care and national security continue to take center stage on the national scene, an increasing number of voters are likely to become disenfranchised with the Democratic Party. The following are 12 signs that 2010 is going to be a really, really bad year for the Democrats and the Obama administration....
#1) Health care "reform" has been a total nightmare for Obama and the Democrats. The majority of Americans have been horrified to learn that the plan put forward by the Democrats will make purchasing health insurance mandatory, will raise taxes, will give the government unprecedented control over health care decisions, will result in much fewer health care choices for the average American and will push U.S. government deficits through the roof. Approval ratings for the health care "reform" bill have been hovering in the 30s, and considering that this is the centerpiece of the Democratic agenda, this is a really, really bad sign for Obama and the Democrats.
#2) In fact, more Americans than ever are sick and tired of the financial mess that the U.S. government is getting us all into. The truth is that the U.S. government is drowning under an absolute mountain of debt and all of the spending that Barack Obama is doing is only making it worse. To finance this debt, the U.S. Treasury has been forced to issue so many new bonds that the rest of the world cannot possibly buy them all. So who is buying them all up? The Federal Reserve. In fact, the Fed is now purchasing approximately 80 of all new U.S. debt.
#3) But even with all of this reckless government spending the unemployment situation in the U.S. is still absolutely brutal. When even Wal-Mart is closing stores you know things are really bad. Wal-Mart just announced this past week that it will close 10 money-losing Sam's Club stores and will cut 1,500 jobs in order to reduce costs. So if even Wal-Mart has to shut down stores, what chance do other retailers have?
#4) In fact, some areas of the U.S. are a total economic nightmare at this point. The mayor of Detroit recently said that the real unemployment rate in his city is somewhere up around 50 percent. When things get that bad, the party out of power starts to look better and better.
#5) So just how bad are things when compared to past recessions? During the 2001 recession, the U.S. economy lost 2% of its jobs and it took four years to get them back. This time the U.S. economy has lost more than 5 percent of its jobs and there is no sign that the bleeding of jobs will stop any time soon. Those who do not have jobs are much likelier to consider voting for the party out of power.
#6) The reality is that more Americans are in financial trouble than at any point in recent times. Americans are going broke at a staggering pace. 1.41 million Americans filed for personal bankruptcy in 2009 - a 32 percent increase over 2008. This is not a trend that is going to help the Democrats.
#7) We are also seeing a record number of mortgage defaults. According to a report that was just released, delinquent home loans at government-controlled mortgage finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac surged 20 percent from July to September. In fact, things are such a mess at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that the Obama administration recently removed the caps on the amount of financial assistance that the U.S. government will be giving these two entities. Whether or not Obama created this mess is not the issue. What is the issue is that an increasing number of Americans are blaming him for this mess.
#8) In fact, many analysts believe that the the housing crash is far from over. They say that a massive "second wave" of mortgage defaults is getting ready to hit the U.S. economy starting in 2010. In fact, this "second wave" is so frightening that even 60 minutes is reporting on it. When this second wave does hit, most Americans are going to place responsibility for it in the laps of the Obama administration.
#9) Now there is even concern that the recent global deep freeze could end up seriously affecting food prices in American supermarkets in 2010. As the past several decades have clearly shown, Americans tend to vote according to how their pocketbooks are doing, and if food prices shoot through the roof that will not help Obama and the Democrats at all.
#10) In addition, recent polls indicate that the majority of Americans are so concerned about terrorism that they would be willing to sacrifice certain freedoms in order to feel safer. Considering the fact that terrorism is considered to be an issue that greatly favors the Republicans, this has got to be very concerning to the Democrats.
#11) On the foreign policy front, Obama risks alienating the Jewish vote by continuing to insist that Israel give East Jerusalem to the Palestinians. The truth is that the Jewish vote is crucial for the Democrats and Obama in places like Florida, and by taking such a hardline anti-Israel position, Obama is not winning any new friends in the Jewish community.
#12) Also, Barack Obama is continuing to push for a treaty with Russia that would reduce the U.S. strategic nuclear arsenal to approximately 10 percent of the size that it was at the height of the cold war. Such an irresponsible approach to national security is surely not going to win Obama and the Democrats many friends among moderate voters who are concerned about security issues.
Any way you cut it, 2010 is shaping up to be a very bad year for the Democrats. Barack Obama's approval rating has already been plummeting like a rock, and there does not seem to be much hope of that turning around any time soon. In fact, if the signs above are any indication, the 2010 election could end up being really, really good to the Republicans.
But with Obama still in the White House until at least 2012, will they be able to do much to clean up the mess?
Monday, November 23, 2009
Common Sense - What Really Happened On September 11th? (part 2)
1. Building 7 of the World Trade Center complex was not hit by an airplane, yet it collapsed at all but exactly free-fall speed. This seems to run counter to ALL PREVIOUS KNOWLEDGE of structure fires, and the behavior of steel structures while aflame. Never before or since this event has a steel framed building collapsed into itself at nearly free-fall speed, from fire and only fire. And that, of course, is the official story. Observe the footage of building 7's collapse. Hopefully you're already familiar, as anyone even remotely concerned with what happens in their country should be. Then compare that footage to stock footage of building demolitions. The images will be virtually indistinguishable. There is a tell-tale buckling of the roof (which begins collapse before the rest of the building) toward the center, which is exactly what one would expect during a demolition of a building.
Another very instructive comparison to make is between the footage of building 7 and other high rise buildings that have caught fire. One of the liberty towers in Philadelphia, for example, burned for over 12 hours, if I remember correctly.. officials on the scene described it as probably the worst high rise building fire in American history. The building is lit up like a torch, bright as the sun. The images of this event couldn't be any more different from building 7 on sept. 11. The fire in building 7 is emitting very dark smoke, which indicates an OXYGEN STARVED fire, rather than the thinner type smoke emitted from hotter, oxygen-fed fires. There are other skyscraper fires to compare this event to. There was one in Spain in 2005. Same story. Much bigger, brighter fire, and no collapse. And definitely no collapse at free fall speed, something all but impossible to accomplish unless a building's core support apparatus has been neutralized.
Either NYC has employed the most mediocre of engineers and architects.. or the official explanation of this event, as a fire-caused collapse is simply incorrect. There's much more to bring up regarding building 7, but I'll move on to another point for now.
2. THE TESTIMONY OF FORMER C.I.A AGENT SYBEL EDMONDS. Recently, this brave woman broke a federal gag order by announcing to the press that the agency she was a member of had direct contact with Al Qaeda and Bin Laden all the way up to the very day of September 11th. This is a startling revelation, as there is already a bucketful of evidence linking American intelligence to Al Qaeda, which in Arabic, means "The Base," and is in literal reference to a computer database the military kept in the '80's, of middle-eastern mercenaries willing to do the C.I.A's bidding. Combine this unsettling fact with the fact that Osama Bin Laden was visited by American intelligence officials in a Saudi Arabian hospital just months before the attacks, where he was receiving dialisis treatment, and also the fact that other whistle-blowers have revealed having Bin Laden in the crosshairs, and being ordered not to take the shot.. and the possibility that Al Qaeda is really a patsy organization, under the wing of the C.I.A, becomes more than mere idle speculation.
3. A common response to the obvious discrepancies between the official explanation, and the video footage of all 3 buildings collapsing in a manner consistent with demolition, and inconsistent with fire, is: "Well, there's really no point in going over this, since we'll never know exactly how they fell, until another two planes fly into another two towers.. so let's just forget about it."
It's important to patiently remind people that the one and only reason we are unable to ascertain the exact cause of all 3 collapses is because the federal government, only days after the attack, arranged for the steel debris to be shipped off to China to be melted down and used to make various slave labor products. Obviously excavation should have begun as soon as was possible, but shipping the debris, which would have contained AN ABUNDANCE of forensic and ballistic evidence, to a foreign country just days after the attacks, constitutes tampering with evidence in a federal crime scene, a very serious offense.
4. At least six of the alleged suicide hijackers have come out publicly, declaring that they are alive and not involved in any terrorism. Despite this amazing fact, these individuals remain on the F.B.I's list of the 19 hijackers, and no explanation or acknowledgment of this fact is offered.
5. In the 1950's, a B52 bomber flew HEAD FIRST, in foggy weather, into the empire state buildiing. There was some loss of life, obviously.. and it was quite a challenge for the firefighters at the time. But no big deal. No collapse. And that was a B52 bomber.
6. Samples of Nano-thermite, found at/near the crime scene, within the dust from the debris. Samples acquired and studied by Dr. Steven Jones, Physicist. Nano-thermite is significant, because it's an industrial explosive, commonly used in the demolition industry. It's presence within the debris is extremely difficult to explain, from the standpoint of the official story, since there is really no conceivable explanation for this particular substance to have been present naturally.
7. The Director of the 9/11 Commission, the federal government's excuse for an investigation, is an individual named Philip Zelikow. The problem with Philip Zelikow is that he co-authored a book with Condoleeza Rice, and has close ties and friendships with several members of the Bush administration. This is just one example of the multitude of conflicts of interest within the 9/11 Commission and it's final report.
8. NASA thermographic pictures from MONTHS after the attack show significant amounts of MOLTEN METAL still pooled beneath the rubble. The temperatures of this molten steel far exceed the maximum burning temperature of jet fuel. And that's jet fuel at its MAXIMUM. Forget about jet fuel after months of smoldering, there's no way these temperatures would be at the level necessary to maintain a pool of melted steel. Do you know what is consistent with lingering pools of molten steel, though? EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS OF THE MILITARY GRADE INDUSTRIAL EXPLOSIVE, NANO-THERMITE, AS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED.
9, The Project For A New American Century (PNAC). This is a document published by a Neoconservative thinktank in 2000, within which the neocons complain about how their agenda for securing American dominance during the upcoming century isn't progressing quickly enough for them, and that a "NEW PEARL HARBOR" as they put it, is necessary, if the American people are going to be sufficiently galvanized into future wars for empire. About one year later, they got the "new pearl harbor" they were looking for.
Please rigorously fact-check any of this that sounds far fetched or made up.
I believe that exposing the crime of 9/11 is key to putting the brakes on this entire nightmare that has been thrust upon us since then, first by the Neocons, during Bush's eight years, and now, it's become obvious, also by Obama's fake liberal front, and his Wall Street handlers.
It's very difficult to stir the American public into becoming proactive. Very few things have been able to do that. But once it's done it's one of the most insurmountable forces the globe's ever seen. The overwhelming public outcry over Vietnam springs to mind as a powerful example of this. Another is the progress made with workers' rights in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
I believe this type of awakening and empowerment is in order once again. And a true realization of the motives and culprits behind 9/11 is precisely the remedy to the sociological disorder that has plagued our nation since that horrible day.
Another very instructive comparison to make is between the footage of building 7 and other high rise buildings that have caught fire. One of the liberty towers in Philadelphia, for example, burned for over 12 hours, if I remember correctly.. officials on the scene described it as probably the worst high rise building fire in American history. The building is lit up like a torch, bright as the sun. The images of this event couldn't be any more different from building 7 on sept. 11. The fire in building 7 is emitting very dark smoke, which indicates an OXYGEN STARVED fire, rather than the thinner type smoke emitted from hotter, oxygen-fed fires. There are other skyscraper fires to compare this event to. There was one in Spain in 2005. Same story. Much bigger, brighter fire, and no collapse. And definitely no collapse at free fall speed, something all but impossible to accomplish unless a building's core support apparatus has been neutralized.
Either NYC has employed the most mediocre of engineers and architects.. or the official explanation of this event, as a fire-caused collapse is simply incorrect. There's much more to bring up regarding building 7, but I'll move on to another point for now.
2. THE TESTIMONY OF FORMER C.I.A AGENT SYBEL EDMONDS. Recently, this brave woman broke a federal gag order by announcing to the press that the agency she was a member of had direct contact with Al Qaeda and Bin Laden all the way up to the very day of September 11th. This is a startling revelation, as there is already a bucketful of evidence linking American intelligence to Al Qaeda, which in Arabic, means "The Base," and is in literal reference to a computer database the military kept in the '80's, of middle-eastern mercenaries willing to do the C.I.A's bidding. Combine this unsettling fact with the fact that Osama Bin Laden was visited by American intelligence officials in a Saudi Arabian hospital just months before the attacks, where he was receiving dialisis treatment, and also the fact that other whistle-blowers have revealed having Bin Laden in the crosshairs, and being ordered not to take the shot.. and the possibility that Al Qaeda is really a patsy organization, under the wing of the C.I.A, becomes more than mere idle speculation.
3. A common response to the obvious discrepancies between the official explanation, and the video footage of all 3 buildings collapsing in a manner consistent with demolition, and inconsistent with fire, is: "Well, there's really no point in going over this, since we'll never know exactly how they fell, until another two planes fly into another two towers.. so let's just forget about it."
It's important to patiently remind people that the one and only reason we are unable to ascertain the exact cause of all 3 collapses is because the federal government, only days after the attack, arranged for the steel debris to be shipped off to China to be melted down and used to make various slave labor products. Obviously excavation should have begun as soon as was possible, but shipping the debris, which would have contained AN ABUNDANCE of forensic and ballistic evidence, to a foreign country just days after the attacks, constitutes tampering with evidence in a federal crime scene, a very serious offense.
4. At least six of the alleged suicide hijackers have come out publicly, declaring that they are alive and not involved in any terrorism. Despite this amazing fact, these individuals remain on the F.B.I's list of the 19 hijackers, and no explanation or acknowledgment of this fact is offered.
5. In the 1950's, a B52 bomber flew HEAD FIRST, in foggy weather, into the empire state buildiing. There was some loss of life, obviously.. and it was quite a challenge for the firefighters at the time. But no big deal. No collapse. And that was a B52 bomber.
6. Samples of Nano-thermite, found at/near the crime scene, within the dust from the debris. Samples acquired and studied by Dr. Steven Jones, Physicist. Nano-thermite is significant, because it's an industrial explosive, commonly used in the demolition industry. It's presence within the debris is extremely difficult to explain, from the standpoint of the official story, since there is really no conceivable explanation for this particular substance to have been present naturally.
7. The Director of the 9/11 Commission, the federal government's excuse for an investigation, is an individual named Philip Zelikow. The problem with Philip Zelikow is that he co-authored a book with Condoleeza Rice, and has close ties and friendships with several members of the Bush administration. This is just one example of the multitude of conflicts of interest within the 9/11 Commission and it's final report.
8. NASA thermographic pictures from MONTHS after the attack show significant amounts of MOLTEN METAL still pooled beneath the rubble. The temperatures of this molten steel far exceed the maximum burning temperature of jet fuel. And that's jet fuel at its MAXIMUM. Forget about jet fuel after months of smoldering, there's no way these temperatures would be at the level necessary to maintain a pool of melted steel. Do you know what is consistent with lingering pools of molten steel, though? EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS OF THE MILITARY GRADE INDUSTRIAL EXPLOSIVE, NANO-THERMITE, AS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED.
9, The Project For A New American Century (PNAC). This is a document published by a Neoconservative thinktank in 2000, within which the neocons complain about how their agenda for securing American dominance during the upcoming century isn't progressing quickly enough for them, and that a "NEW PEARL HARBOR" as they put it, is necessary, if the American people are going to be sufficiently galvanized into future wars for empire. About one year later, they got the "new pearl harbor" they were looking for.
Please rigorously fact-check any of this that sounds far fetched or made up.
I believe that exposing the crime of 9/11 is key to putting the brakes on this entire nightmare that has been thrust upon us since then, first by the Neocons, during Bush's eight years, and now, it's become obvious, also by Obama's fake liberal front, and his Wall Street handlers.
It's very difficult to stir the American public into becoming proactive. Very few things have been able to do that. But once it's done it's one of the most insurmountable forces the globe's ever seen. The overwhelming public outcry over Vietnam springs to mind as a powerful example of this. Another is the progress made with workers' rights in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
I believe this type of awakening and empowerment is in order once again. And a true realization of the motives and culprits behind 9/11 is precisely the remedy to the sociological disorder that has plagued our nation since that horrible day.
Friday, April 17, 2009
Gibroney Of The Week: Geneane Garofalo
"this is about racism" Fuck you, Geneane Garofalo. Your hateful stereotyping only serves to make you look like the absolute clown you are. You're a hatemongering, menstrual hollywood reject. This is about globalization and the hijacking of our economy by international bankers. You apparently have nothing to say regarding those issues, only all-too-easy-to-grasp social issues that are just irresistible to you grumpy liberal activist retards. I've not heard anyone seriously involved in these protests bring up the issue of race AT ALL. You're a fucking liar. You're an ugly old fucking liar. Eat shit. A nitwit like you would probably still be crying about her false interpretation of the right wing while you're being hustled off to a FEMA camp. If you're half as smart as you've pretended to be for the past twenty years, then hurry up and outgrow your pathetic attachment to the left-right paradigm. You're becoming irrelevant at light speed.
She talks alot about people being uneducated, which of course is always true when you're talking about Americans. But she's the one who seems utterly clueless about current events, and the Obama administration's blatant continuation of the efforts of the Bush administration. In his first week in office, this creep ensured the continuance of a policy of brutal torture, and added to the amount of troops being sent to Afghanistan. The anti-war candidate wasted no time in ramping up our imperial war in the desert. But Garofalo is more interested in quizing people on 18th century politics than addressing the abuses to our country that are taking place HERE and NOW. No one should listen to her.
She talks alot about people being uneducated, which of course is always true when you're talking about Americans. But she's the one who seems utterly clueless about current events, and the Obama administration's blatant continuation of the efforts of the Bush administration. In his first week in office, this creep ensured the continuance of a policy of brutal torture, and added to the amount of troops being sent to Afghanistan. The anti-war candidate wasted no time in ramping up our imperial war in the desert. But Garofalo is more interested in quizing people on 18th century politics than addressing the abuses to our country that are taking place HERE and NOW. No one should listen to her.
Thursday, March 26, 2009
Why Do So Many Peaceniks Hate Alex Jones?
This is a question I've been tossing around lately. Particularly after having sat with a group of fairweather thinkers during a viewing of the Obama Deception. Just a few minutes in someone made note of Alex Jones' shall we say, extroverted personality. While they certainly weren't the first or last to bring attention to Mr. Jones' aggressive journalistic style, I expected the group to get their chuckles in about it and move on.
Instead constant criticism was offered regarding both his language and tone, along with the visuals contained in the film. Interestingly enough I heard no criticism of the actual ideas, or the actual information in the film. The closest they came to this was that tried and true mantra of the truth-fearing Sheeple: "How do I know he's not just making all of this up?" The short answer to this naive question is pretty simple: Through fact-checking and internet research, dummy. The quick and easy cross-referencing made available by the internet is truly an invaluable tool for those conducting research.
But back to the question of why hippies seem to hate Alex Jones so much. I believe it's primarily because of his unwillingness to sugarcoat the truth and his belief that we should prepare for violence. Hippies don't like the thought of being threatened by violence, and nor does anyone else for that matter. But they don't just dislike the reality of a looming threat to our freedom. They try their best to ignore it. Some even go so far as to deny it, but most are content to invest efforts simply downplaying the threat the N.W.O poses.
The reason these peaceniks are nowhere to be found on any of the important issues is because of their general belief that all is and will continue to be well, through no particular effort on their part. They turn a blind eye to the dark side of human nature, and the ongoing threat it poses to our survival. They fail to recognize that preparedness for threats is a form of intelligence and therefore favored by natural selection. Basically, these deluded scenesters have lost their fight vs. flight instinct, and instead are behaving quite similarly to deer in headlights. Silent and motionless.
This isn't an attack on pacifism. There are many people within the movement (which is a good general term to describe the awakening of people and the increase in public knowledge fueled by the internet) who reject all forms of violence. In fact, this movement is entirely peaceful and all progress that has been made has been made by simply communicating, nothing more, nothing less.
But yeah, to recap, hip kids and Alex Jones don't mix well. Unfortunately my own experience confirms what Michael Tsarion has said about the matter. Namely, that there are many people who fall inbetween 'free thinkers' and 'sheeple'. They're bright enough to realize that they're different from the herd, but either too dim or too scared to embrace that status fully, and the ostracization that inevitably follows. Thinking independently and individualism are very marketable ideas for the kids. Sadly, the work that these require is not. This is why Americans love their Daily Show and their Bill Maher. Because Truth Lite is much easier to swallow, plus it allows one to walk around pretending to be 'in the know' while still enjoying the perks of slavery.
The reason I'm making a big deal of this is because this movement needs all the help it can get if we're going to have any chance to survive, and it truly saddens me to see bright people with real potential fall victim to denial and group-think.
Instead constant criticism was offered regarding both his language and tone, along with the visuals contained in the film. Interestingly enough I heard no criticism of the actual ideas, or the actual information in the film. The closest they came to this was that tried and true mantra of the truth-fearing Sheeple: "How do I know he's not just making all of this up?" The short answer to this naive question is pretty simple: Through fact-checking and internet research, dummy. The quick and easy cross-referencing made available by the internet is truly an invaluable tool for those conducting research.
But back to the question of why hippies seem to hate Alex Jones so much. I believe it's primarily because of his unwillingness to sugarcoat the truth and his belief that we should prepare for violence. Hippies don't like the thought of being threatened by violence, and nor does anyone else for that matter. But they don't just dislike the reality of a looming threat to our freedom. They try their best to ignore it. Some even go so far as to deny it, but most are content to invest efforts simply downplaying the threat the N.W.O poses.
The reason these peaceniks are nowhere to be found on any of the important issues is because of their general belief that all is and will continue to be well, through no particular effort on their part. They turn a blind eye to the dark side of human nature, and the ongoing threat it poses to our survival. They fail to recognize that preparedness for threats is a form of intelligence and therefore favored by natural selection. Basically, these deluded scenesters have lost their fight vs. flight instinct, and instead are behaving quite similarly to deer in headlights. Silent and motionless.
This isn't an attack on pacifism. There are many people within the movement (which is a good general term to describe the awakening of people and the increase in public knowledge fueled by the internet) who reject all forms of violence. In fact, this movement is entirely peaceful and all progress that has been made has been made by simply communicating, nothing more, nothing less.
But yeah, to recap, hip kids and Alex Jones don't mix well. Unfortunately my own experience confirms what Michael Tsarion has said about the matter. Namely, that there are many people who fall inbetween 'free thinkers' and 'sheeple'. They're bright enough to realize that they're different from the herd, but either too dim or too scared to embrace that status fully, and the ostracization that inevitably follows. Thinking independently and individualism are very marketable ideas for the kids. Sadly, the work that these require is not. This is why Americans love their Daily Show and their Bill Maher. Because Truth Lite is much easier to swallow, plus it allows one to walk around pretending to be 'in the know' while still enjoying the perks of slavery.
The reason I'm making a big deal of this is because this movement needs all the help it can get if we're going to have any chance to survive, and it truly saddens me to see bright people with real potential fall victim to denial and group-think.
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