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In this installment we're joined by Bill Sovereignsky, from the Common Sense radio show, on WNJC 1360 AM, 6 - 7 pm.

The Gibroney Hunter VS Illegal Immigration

Illegal immigration is a peculiar issue. Peculiar to the United
States in the size and scope to which the problem has intentionally
been allowed to grow. Immigration is an issue faced by every
developed nation, and often it's a source of tension and state
sponsored racism throughout a society. Illegal immigration on a
massive scale, however, is a problem faced only by the United States.

To be sure, the problem is faced by other nations. Germany, for
example, has a population of over one million illegal immigrants from
Africa. But with an estimated 20 million illegal immigrants, the U.S
clearly faces a unique problem.

Especially frustrating is the fact that we, like every other sovereign
nation of the world, do indeed have adequate laws in place to deal
with this issue before it would have reached the point of being
critical. They're just not enforced. Federal attempts to secure our
borders from trespassers amount to little more than theater, and law
enforcement actions that would truly be effective as a deterrent, like
the prosecution of the employers, is seldom seen.

This defies logic. The employers are the ones with something to
lose. The employers are the ones with assets to be seized, and
businesses to keep running. They're the ones for whom a court date
would be a real problem. For the people who just risked starvation or
worse, just to get here, the prospect of waiting around in jail while
being processed through the system is far from a worst case scenario.

Indeed, it would seem that with every aspect of this issue there can
be found a common and disturbing theme, that of intentionally
avoiding, delaying, and generally thwarting every attempt to
effectively and sanely address it. Victims of the "right" of the false
left-right paradigm find themselves behaving like absolute children,
building a jury rigged wall along a tiny portion of our unchecked
southern border. And victims of the left side of the same scam find
themselves in the intellectually embarrassing position of suggesting
that we dump tens of millions of slave laborers into an already dying
economy, a socioeconomic chess move that anyone who's taken high
school economics should be able to recognize as foolish.

So no one's bringing anything but shit to the table. One of the few
things about this issue that is crystal clear to me is the fact that
none of the manipulative people and organizations involved in putting
forward such ludicrous and brain dead responses to this problem are in
the least bit interested in seeing it resolved.

One of the common claims by the people who are anti-border is that
illegal immigrants only take jobs Americans don't want. This
statement is only half true. Americans don't want to perform these
tasks for the pay being offered, that is true. But it's simply
preposterous to refer to these "opportunities" as jobs. Call them
what they are. Slave labor. If it is the contention of zombies on
the left that Americans are unwilling to become slaves, then they are
correct. It is a chilling glimpse at the perverse mindset of many who
would put forward the belief that not wanting to live like a brutally
overworked peasant, and the desire to have a dignified and healthy
standard of living, somehow makes Americans arrogant or lazy. Quite
the opposite is true. It is precisely this stubborn and proud refusal
to be reduced to what we were before the revolution that makes this
country, still, even in this dark hour, the world's last best hope for
true freedom.


(..to be continued)

Terri Gross is part of the problem.

Tell me, Terri Gross, what am I supposed to be afraid of today? Is it Iran? McTerrorists? Or maybe the militia, or those crazy conspiracy theorists who want to murder me? I'm sure you know.. after all, your voice.. it's your voice.. It's just so soothing to my deprived, subdued ego.. I need to believe, Terri..... I need to believe that you and those like you are holding things together..

Suck me in with the good natured discussions with actors.. talk about their philosophies toward the art of acting, and entertainment.. then tomorrow have the hatemonger author on who tells me why I should hate Iran, or other strangers that have never wronged me. That doesn't make you part of the problem, or anything. It's not as if in certain ways, you're exponentially worse than your louder friends over at Fox News. You are such a piece of crap, Terri. There's a reason God cursed you with such a hideous physical form, buck teeth and glasses and all.. because inside, that's what you look like. A gangly, fawning sycophant who couldn't possibly conceive of the concept of breaching the script, or stopping the Satanic mind-fuck that you perpetrate on people every day on NPR. Can't believe I fell for you for so many years. What a whore you are.

"Thieves could go free while victim faces jail time."

The two illegal immigrants can be charged in American courts for theft, but that's just not profitable to the criminal federal government. Since most illegal immigrants can't and won't pay court fees, hire lawyers, etc.. But the old man can. He has property and assets to be seized, or at least used up by the phony court proceedings. This is how the federal government pries into your life and dissolves it from the inside out. They prey on the weak.. the old, the young and neglected..

This gibroney's living in a fantasy world. Jon Stewart's criticism is incorrect? How about the renewal of the Patriot Act, fatso? Funny how you didn't mention that. That was the precise moment at which you were officially a retard for still supporting Obama.

Bill Gates Punks the Truth Movement, Whether He Meant To or Not

I don't like Bill Gates. I don't trust him, or his glasses, or his sweaters. Even setting aside his Eugenicist ties, and transparently criminal "charity" organizations, there's still the fact that he's a nerdy asshole who somehow tricked the world into purchasing his inferior, and oftentimes criminally deficient computer products.

But no matter how strong the stench of cowardly sin emanating from Gates, it doesn't change the fact that he succeeded in punking (albeit probably in an inadvertent manner) some of the less bright members of the "truth" community with his recent comments regarding vaccines and population reduction.
Let's examine his comments word for word:
"If we do a really good job with new vaccines we could reduce [the population] by 10 to 15 percent."

Obviously what Gates is trying to say is that he believes vaccines save childrens lives, and administering them in the third world will reduce child mortality significantly enough so that people will not feel the same need to give birth to 6 to 8 children, a decision currently fueled by the likelihood that more than half of them will succumb to disease before the age of 10.

While I disagree with Gates that vaccines, rather than proper nutrition and sanitation, will have this effect, he is right about the effect in itself. When living standards increase to a healthy level, the phenomenon of giving birth to excessive amounts of children for security's sake does cease.

But the fearmongerers and alarmists within the truth movement are seemingly unable to grasp this simple point. To them, Gates' words are interpreted as a slip-up. A sudden and shocking admission of his hidden and dark ambitions.

First of all, he's not that stupid, and you're stupid if you think he's that stupid. Second of all, there's a pretty good chance that Gates, like the rest of the majority of people, is being taken for a ride, and is simply speaking naively, rather than cynically, regarding vaccines.

An incomplete list of people within the movement who are apparently either stupid enough, or in need enough of attention, to sloppily and irresponsily present Bill Gates' statements:

Alex Jones
Jack Blood
Mike Rivero
James Corbett

Beware of these buttholes. All of them are good people with good intentions, but beware of their capacity for grasping at straws for the sake of ratings or website hits.

There is more than enough real evidence of eugenicists and their nightmarish plans for the human race. There is simply no need to try to make something out of nothing by intentionally misinterpreting a quote, thereby providing ammunition for detractors who are already all too anxious to dismiss us as presumptuous paranoids.

Wise up, truth movement. You just punked yourselves.

Racists Go Home

David Duke's another shill and weasel, just like Farakhan. Another racist half-truth huckster, not to be trusted. The Jewish people are just another group of human beings, used and manipulated by the New World Order, into carrying out much of their dirty work. Oliver North is not a Jew. Dick Cheney is not a Jew. Al Gore is not a Jew. The Spanish Conquistadors were not Jewish. The FreeMasons are remarkably non-Jewish, in membership and philosophy.

To hate Jewish people for the acts of Zionists within their government makes about as much sense as hating Americans for the actions of Neocons.

So Jewish people can erect minorahs on public or federal property, but Christians can't? Alright, I'll just go ahead and tell ya. I think that's bullshit. Do you know of any examples of this being the case? Are there any examples of Christians being told to go home while Jewish people were welcomed to display their religious symbols? The video you posted didn't provide any whatsoever. Which is strange, because if there were actual examples of this, and if it weren't just a hateful, cynical lie being told by David Duke.. you'd think he would have.. shit, I dunno.. mentioned them, maybe?

This entire production is geared toward hatred and conflict. The entire latter part of it is merely David Duke quoting other dumb racists on the other side of the fence.

Jews "run" Hollywood? Really? What about: Martin Scorcese, George Lucas, Walt Disney, Rupert Murdoch, Frances Ford Coppolla, Kevin Smith, M. Knight Shamalon, Clint Eastwood, Matt Groening ?

Zionism is only part of this. This is apparent to everyone who isn't racist.

Disinformation.com: 70% hacky bullshit, 30% tame flirting with taboo topics

I think Disinformation likes to milk the term "conspiracy theory," while offering relatively little of the facts and information that back some of them up. Quit coddling the mainstream, Disinfo. It's no longer necessary.

http://www.disinfo.com/2010/05/pakistan-and-conspiracy-theory/

A Visit From Our Possible Future

Mexican dictator Felipe Calderon lectures the U.S for not having stricter gun laws, meanwhile more people die from guns in his own country, which has enacted a "total gun ban."

He then criticizes the Arizona immigration bill, while his own country maintains a much more aggressive illegal immigrant policy toward Guatemala, and central/south America.

While senator Lieberman proposes legislation to strip Americans of their citizenship and detain them indefinitely in places like Guantanamo, McLiberals everywhere are up in arms because illegal immigrants in Arizona are being asked for their I.D

Dr. Wakefield

http://darryl-cunningham.blogspot.com/2010/05/facts-in-case-of-dr-andrew-wakefield.html


The standards for conflicts of interest were different in '98. That's why Wakefield didn't disclose the fact that he was involved with litigation. Was it the right thing to do? Probably not. I advocate being as honest as possible in as many situations as possible. But the $68,000 question is did he violate the rules for conflict of interest within the scientific community at the time? And the answer's no. The real breach of ethics lies with the "scientists" who broke their own rules by applying the current standard for conflict of interest retroactively.

Also, the tests on the children were approved in '96, but because they didn't take place until '98, the people in charge of this witch hunt had enough ambiguity on their side to claim that this was another breach of ethics. It was not.

Another bit of nonsense here, is the assertion that these studies have been accurately reproduced. They have not. While studies involving the comparison of children with and without the MMR vaccine took place, and did indeed find no correlation between the shot and autism, the method of using only test subjects for whom said symptoms were reported, as was the case for the Wakefield report, has not been replicated.

There are, however, many examples of what I would call nature's own double blind studies, that support the claims of Dr Wakefield. Here's one: There are zero (0) reported cases of autism within Amish communities in the northeast. This is striking because, location wise, the Amish are in the heart of "autism country". Obviously Amish children receive no vaccinations, yet are among the healthiest in America.. and %100 autism free. They also don't suffer from any measles outbreaks, as your little cartoon vaguely and baselessly alluded to. The drawings are fitting, though. Certainly reflective of the level of maturity associated with blind faith in science, and denial of the blatant reality that it, too, can be corrupted.

The Gibroney Hunter VS The Hutch: Global Warming (2)

The Hutch: NASA: hottest April (and hottest Jan-Apr) since we started tracking. Will Fox News bother reporting this? http://bit.ly/d6zzy6

The Gibroney Hunter: So record snowfalls in winter mean nothing, yet a statistically hot month is supposed to prove something? I love it. Classic Hutch tail-chasing. The reality is that neither of these facts really mean anything, in terms of proving or denying "climate change" (something that has always and will always occur on our planet).

And really, if you're going to let Anne "the cunt" Coulter be the authority on ANY issue, then you're probably beyond any sort of help.

Temperatures have been declining since 2002. This fact directly contradicts official global warming theory, since according to the (demonstrably fraudulent) models temperatures should only be steadily increasing, since after all, our rate of consumption for fossil fuels is consistently increasing. A nearly decade-long decline in temps becomes problematic, if we're to believe that human-caused greenhouse gasses (which amount to only 3% of all greenhouse gasses) were the driving force behind temperature increases during the nineties.

Surely, you must find it curious that of all the many steps that could be taken to address environmental degradation, the only thing being hyped by the sellout media is this vague banner-waving over pseudoscientific claims, meant only to push through legislation for political purposes, not environmental. The establishment would much rather you waste your time with nonsense like "climate change" (or the artist formerly known as "global warming") than focus on real environmental issues, like cleaning up our air water and food. (which ironically has been tainted by the very same corporate interests now selling you global warming, with billions in funding)

I'll leave you with one more inconvenient truth: recently scientists discovered the fossilized remains of trees within certain glaciers, dating back to the mideival warming period. The same medieval warming period that global warming advocates claim didn't exist. This would seem to indicate that not only were temperatures significantly warmer then than they are now, but they were so much warmer as to actually turn what are now glaciers into forest. Maybe it was all the methane from their horses.. or maybe those co2 emitting wheelbarrows.

The IPCC = The InterGOVERNMENTAL Panel on Climate Change. A political body, not a scientific one.

The Hutch: Statistically hot _year_. Read the friggin' article. We're talking about climate, here. Not weather. Weather is localized. Climate is global. It reflects a larger period of time, not isolated patterns. One of the hallmarks of greenhouse gas heat entrapment is that all sorts of things go out of wack as weather patterns change. So while the ... See Moreoverall amount of heat being trapped in our atmosphere increased overall, the pressure systems that control the flow of hot and cool air over the surface of the earth caused desertification in some parts of the world, and massive snowstorms in others. The end results? CLIMATE CHANGE. On a long enough time line? The globe warms. One might be so inclined as to call it "global warming."

Oh, and that glacier forest thing? Yeah, I read alla bout that. The scientists who discovered them point them as evidence of artificial global warming! But you've already made up your mind, Lou. Global Warming is just another way the government is out to get us all. The very idea the a government body is supposed to exist to help us is all the proof you need. And like Darren alluded to, any facts that dispute what you believe aren't to be trusted. So it goes.



http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081204133853.htm


The Gibroney Hunter: That's not the "discovery of tree remains" that I'm referring to.

http://www.co2science.org/data/mwp/studies/l1_piancabella.php

Guess you haven't read all about it...

As I said, these recent findings are dated back to the MEDIEVAL warming period (roughly 1000-1300 a.d) not 7,000+ years ago, and strongly indicate that overall temperatures in the area were warmer than in the second half of the twentieth century.

Jan-April is a year?

"The very idea the a government body is supposed to exist to help us is all the proof you need."

Actually, this was the last point that was made, after listing multiple facts supporting my opinion. The fact that you're so closed-minded as to make such an obnoxiously false statement like, is further indication that you're more content to feel like you're right, than to actually do the homework necessary to have any sort of real confidence in your opinions. Also, it's not the fact that the IPCC is a governmental body that causes me the most concern. It's more from facts like, i dunno.. shucks.. like, for example, that they've been exposed as intentionally HIDING the declines in temps since 2002 in their statistical models. How you can rationalize this as anything other than criminally fraudulent behavior, I have no idea. Must require some real mental acrobatics.

And that really cuts the heart of it, doesn't it? No matter what evidence is presented to you, your response is to ignore it, and, like some sort of computer program with a gliche, simply repeat the mantra "you've presented no evidence."

You are aware that there's this other course of action you could take, called responding.. to counterarguments, correct?

"Climate is global. It reflects a larger period of time, not isolated patterns."

How long? How long do our records of climate go back? I'll give you a hint: nowhere near far enough to confidently state that this year is the hottest ever. You can say "hottest on record" and call it a day, as you McLiberals are fond of doing, but what you should really be saying is "hottest, based on our woefully brief and inadequate record"

Iraq-style S.W.A.T team raids in the U.S, over tiny amounts of marijuana.

Most people would feel like a piece of shit lowlife after getting a bunch of their buddies together to break into a stranger's house, hold them down and force their child to watch their dog get shot to death. Not these cops though. They seem to enjoy it.

Over a plant. Over a plant. Over a plant! The only people behaving like crazy people and destabilizing society are the cops (most of whom do drugs themselves anyway)
When the people of this country finally wake up, gang members like these cops will be brought to trial for their crimes against our Republic.

The elite get off on making you laugh along with them at their satanic jokes.

Hahah! See, it's funny cuz Obama's actually overseeing two illegal wars in which predator drones really ARE killing children on a regular basis! HAH! Soo hilarious!! Armchair Liberals are now chuckling along with the same tasteless jokes that would have had them oh so upset when the previous puppet president was in office! The only thing funnier than this joke is our inability to realize that Obama and Bush are identical! LMAO!

Save The World Radio - 1

The Gibroney Hunter VS The Hutch: Wikileaks

The Hutch: While I LOVE wikileaks and everything they stand for, this whole thing is absurd. I've been following it on reddit since they first started leaking leaks about the leak and leaking leaks about the leaks about the leak and then they go and call the thing "COLLATERAL MURDER" and if you actually watch the video, the soliders are, for the most part, in... See More the clear and acted accordingly.

I think the real story is that the military lied about what happened when they should have just released the initial report. The journalists weren't wearing anything to indicate that they were journalists and they were standing aorund with dudes holding AKs and RPGs which you can clearly see in the video. Whether or not is was the right military decision in hindsight is obvious. But if I were in that helicopter, I might have shot after I saw some dude point a goddam cylinder at me from around a corner.

So why did the military cover it up in the first place? And why does Wikileaks think this video is worse than anything we've already seen from this war?

The Gibroney Hunter: You may possibly be the most woefully misguided individual I've ever encountered. No, John, shooting a man to death while he's bleeding out and crawling and unarmed is not "acting accordingly," not even for the "most part." Neither is shooting the van of journalists and children who desperately try to save the guys life as he crawls through the streets. Your barbaric defense of the pointless murder of these innocent people is testament to just how desensitized you've become, along with many of your fellow lemmings.

The murderer in the helicopter even ADMITS they're not "acting accordingly" (which is a ridiculous statement [but not surprising, coming froma McLiberal] since the entire invasion is illegitimate, therefore NONE of our military's actions in Iraq can be considered "acting accordingly") when he says "c'mon, buddy, all you gotta do is pick up a weapon."

He says this because the rules of war are that you do not shoot a mortally wounded unarmed man when he is crawling away like a dog, desperately trying to escape. And you don't shoot anyone attempting to aid the wounded, unless they are also involved in hostile actions. ... See More

At what point in this video do you see people holding RPGs? I don't see any weapons, either, but that's a ridiculous statement because finding someone holding a weapon in a middle eastern country is like finding someone wearing a phillies hat in south jersey. Not very hard to do. But where's the RPG you're speaking of, John? Did you see it yourself, or are you just parroting that from the mainstream media, who've been lying about the video, while NOT showing it to their audience.

The mainstream media, who's withering teat you suckle from daily, can propagandize you daily about Iran and why we need to bomb them, or Iraq back in '03, and you gobble it down like a happy piglet. But when independent media use similar techniques to hype a story, you cry fowl. Do I enjoy the 'business side' of releasing another U.S military sponsored snuff film? No. But you're simply doing what so many other goons in the mainstream media have done, which is to ignore the illegal mass murder they just witnessed, and focus on the PRESENTATION of the video of the murders. Because in our sick culture, image is everything. Lowlives within the mainstream media are more upset at wikilieaks for showing us, than at the criminal actions of their military.

I have no doubt that you would fire the shot from that helicopter, John. Which, quite frankly, is why I'm perplexed at your incessant attempts to portray yourself as a liberal. You do remember that your hero Obama told us he was AGAINST this war, do you not? You are aware that you sound exactly like a Bush supporter 3 years ago in your defense of OBVIOUS murder, are you not?

And really, your own words serve as a much clearer portrayal of your flabbergasting hypocrisy than anything else. Is this where you saw yourself a year and a half ago, when pulling the lever for Obama? STILL insanely defending acts of aggression against civilians and children in a war that no one believes in, not even most of the 18 year olds being tricked into fighting it?

Supporting Obama = Supporting the Iraq war. Up = Down. Ignorance = strength. Killing children = Patriotism.

Show me the RPG. Find it in the video and give me the minute count, so i can check it. There is no RPG. There are no weapons. You're either lying or simply repeating what the MSM told you. This isn't acting accordingly. This is shooting a group of people to death because you're bored. And your defense of it is nothing short of despicable.

The Hutch:

http://i.imgur.com/twrSH.jpg

Watch the video again. You can see weapons.

The man on the ground bleeding out is also reportedly on top of an RPG. Can't see anything in the video, but it's _possible_ the gunners did see something.... See More

Look, we shouldn't have been there in the first place. If this video is an indictment of anything, it's how the whole thing is a giant clusterfuck and how war causes the death of innocent people trying to defend their land. I want out of there immediately. But let's stick to known facts. There are COUNTLESS to choose from happening every day. This video? This video is a macguffin. It's a distraction. Right or wrong, it's defendable because we DON'T know what's truly in that video and no matter how loud or ranty or insulting you get, Lou, you still don't know exactly what happened in that video.

And I gotta say, Lou, your outright refusal to even lend a second though to the possibility that you might be wrong, even when you know relatively fuck all about the things you speak about... it's kind of infuriating. Take it down a notch, man. You don't know as much as you think you know.

Furthermore, don't act like my stance on this horrible war is any more contemptible than your own. Neither of us are out on the streets demanding it's end, so neither of us has a right to throw stones.

The Gibroney Hunter: Actually, dude, when you defend the obvious murder of unarmed civilians (i did watch the video again. There is no RPG. Only camera equipment not being handled in any way that could be confused as setting up an RPG, and i see no other weapons, but even if they were holding rifles, that is not in itself a reason to attack with heavy artillery from a gunship) i feel the need to take it up a notch or two.

You continually mistake me pointing out how explicitly wrong you are about certain things as being unwilling to "lend a second thought." But when all you're bringing to the table is the diversionary technique of shooting the messenger (wikileaks) and some ridiculous recitation of the outright lie that the man bleeding to death and crawling is "also reportedly ontop of an RPG", it shouldn't be a surprise when I speak confidently, since in this case, every bit of the evidence is in my favor. The whole friggin world knows what this was: Murder. Only the most deluded here at home are brainwashed enough to argue otherwise. You can rationalize the murder. You can not blame the troops for the murder. Shit, dude, you can even be GLAD about the murders, as some hateful people have expressed through website comments. But one thing you cannot do, at least according to the laws of reality and sanity, is claim that what we witnessed was not murder. It was. There's simply no way around that one.

Statements like that make me feel the need to ask if you actually did watch this video, as the "man bleeding out" is Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen, and he is clearly not hiding an RPG while dying. This is made abundantly clear by the sheer distance he is seen crawling. In this disgusting video he is seen crawling down a good portion of the street. It is abundantly clear that there is nothing but the road beneath him, not like he would have had the strength to hide a ROCKET LAUNCHER in his condition anyway. Also, what is it that you're suggesting? That a Reuters journalist had a side gig as a rocket shooting al qaeda terrorist? Get real.... See More

And I'm sorry, but defending shooting at vans full of children attempting to rescue unarmed wounded men IS more contemptible than not defending shooting at vans full of children attempting to rescue unarmed wounded men.

What happened is clear. These kids were bored and the spotting of some machinery, any machinery (in this case camera equipment) being operated was enough of an excuse for them to kill some people for entertainment's sake.

But let's take seriously for a moment the ridiculous claim that these soldiers could have mistaken this camera for an RPG and felt so threatened by a man holding a rifle loosely in one hand, in no way intending to use it, and actually behaving exactly as one would while providing light security for a journalist. Why did they murder the unarmed journalist? Why did they shoot the minivan that was clearly there to try to rescue the man, and made no attempt to perform hostile actions against U.S forces? Why did they refuse to take the two severely wounded CHILDREN to a U.S military hospital? Remember all the propaganda during the beginning of this war, about how our good ole boys treat all wounded the same, and actually fight for the lives of their enemies just as hard? Right.

When the ground troops arrived (the ones who actually have to SEE what they've done, not just play the real-life-video game) they say "you shot kids" and want to evac them to a military hospital. The boys back in the gunship say no, and explain that "well, they shouldn't have brought their kids into a combat zone then"

The kids had actually been rescued from an earlier violent incident by the journalists. That's why they were in the van.

If me presenting arguments and backing them up with facts is so infuriating for you, I don't know what to tell you. Being unbiased does not mean ignoring obvious fact. During vietnam, our mainstream media, for the longest time, repeated the government-fed lie that various massacres never actually happened, even though all of the independent evidence available suggested otherwise. This is what passes for journalistic objectivity in our culture. Making sure the Establishment's perspective is highlighted and emphasized, no matter how much it clashes with the undeniable reality.

What would Bill Hicks think about bible thumping within the Truth Movement?

Why should they "make it hard" for people to have abortions? Hate to burst your holy rolling bubble, but abortions have been performed for thousands of years and are a part of human behavior. Even the Catholics were tolerant of abortion for most of their history, until the modern hyper-politicized version of the issue. Eugenics is real, no doubt. But forcing people onto welfare because of children they cant provide for, is a far more valuable tool of control for these Globalists than abortion clinics. There are 500,000 orphans in this country and the numbers are growing. If abortion is an illuminati plot, they better pick up the pace.





You bible-thumpers would do well to take a lesson from Barry Goldwater, one of the last true conservatives in this country, who actually took seriously the conservative notion that government should interfere with you and your family as little as possible. While personally opposed to abortion, Goldwater understood that forming the Abortion Police, armed and ready to force women, literally if necessary, to give birth to children they can't provide for, was not the place of government. It seems entirely lost on most "conservatives" that the truly conservative perspective is pro-choice, as one of the pillars of true conservatism is minimization of the necessary evil of central government.



All 500,000 of those orphans are available for adoption, by the way. I'm talking to you, Alex Jones. Take some of your parents' money, which you used to bolster your career, and use it to save a couple of these poor children, whose suffering, through your ideology, you've helped to create.

Another delusion the bible thumping portion of the truth movement suffer from is the belief that women's reproductive freedom, and even woman's suffrage as a whole, are illuminati plots to destroy the family. This is where a firm understanding of the sociopathy of the elite comes in handy. Every single endeavor of the international banking elite is a double edged sword, in that there is the usual damage done to our health, dignity, wallets and sovereignty, but along with it comes the unintended consequences of, and reactions to, their actions. Even a chess move as directly murderous and surgical as 9/11 has had the effect of a mass awakening, which I assure you, is both unexpected and very troublesome for the ruling class.

The point is that there is no such thing as a one sided act of aggression from them. They can make chess moves, and perform shock tests, but there are rules to the game, even when you play on their level. So the likelihood of the hidden hand having its fingers dug into women's suffrage and women's liberation does not mean that they will not ultimately prove to be a step toward progress and a victory for free humanity. Just like the C.I.A's flooding of the "hippie" movement with drugs has no bearing on one's God given right to consume what they choose.

The real reason this issue (which belongs in the family and not in the courtroom)has been thrust upon us is because like gay marriage it has the capability to divide us before we can realize our common ground. Listen to me now, holy rollers: Our opinions on reproductive rights will not matter when we're sitting next to one another in a FEMA camp. Neither will our opinions on gay rights or separation of church and state. Let's address the looming threat of the New World Order before we play into their hands by failing to prioritize our concerns.

The concept of opposing abortion through legislation has been nothing but a trick played on the religious community. The truth is that if you want to end abortions, you must work to strengthen your community and spread your ideals, not through force as you've historically become addicted to doing, but through a strong and healthy community that will attract outsiders into your belief system, not draw them in through court ruling. Bear in mind, Christians, your book says to be fruitful and multiply, not be fruitless and multiply to the point of overflowing orphanages.

The Gibroney Hunter VS The Hutch & Crew: Facebook Battle

The Hutch: I voted for Obama and all I got was this historic victory on health care :: http://tr.im/SX5A

Hutch's Boy: That's not all you got...You also got the lowest debt rating since the Civil War. Congratulations!!

The Gibroney Hunter: And don't forget a bigger better Patriot Act. You the man, Barry!

The Hutch: Bigger? I thought it was just resigned as the same bill?

In any case, I'll never get the exact president I want nor will you. Guys like **** would take up arms and revolt. Obama is, whether we like it or not, a centrist. Change is gradual. Bitching about it and writing off Obama as some sort of failed fascist solves nothing. All we can do is keep trying to elect more and more progressive politicians each year.

Hutch's Boy: WTF?? Did you just call Obama a centrist? You HAVE to be shitting me. Right now, the Federal government is controlling 48% of the US economy. We are more socialist than almost all of Europe.

Umm, so other than Stalin, who's a leftist to you?

The Gibroney Hunter: First he renewed it, and now recently expanded some of the (illegal and unconstitutional) wiretapping provisions. This isn't about finding your dream president, it's about the fact that Obama very obviously works for the same internationalist criminals that Bush worked for. Most people in this country are so preoccupied with their pathetic search... See More for a national daddy figure that they're not even aware that the constitution very clearly limits the authority of the president. Too bad Barry seems to be following Bush's lead, and executive ordering the fuck out of us until the republic's dead.
Other than the fact that the Huff. Post told you so, why do you find the comparisons between Obama and other totalitarian, fascist leaders so farfetched? Is it the incessant push toward consolidation of power in the hands of a centralized government? Or the maintaining of foreign wars for resources? Or maybe some people have been so effectively brain-neutered by the mainstream media to actually believe that historical precedent no longer applies to us, and that no political and economic predators will ever set their gaze upon us, the special people. I swear, McLiberalism is worse than Christianity sometimes.

Hutch's Boy: Louie, what exactly is your problem with Christianity? Is it the hospitals and charities that dot the world? Or perhaps it is the very notion of liberty which it promotes? Aren't you in favor of such liberties? Remember, without the Declaration, the Constitution is an empty document.

****, I couldn't resist.

The Hutch: By all means, Chris. The only thing I enjoy more than debating with you is watching other people debate with you.

Lout, I'm not sure why you seem to think that taking the most extreme point of view possible and lacking any and all empathy for other mindsets is the best possible path to progress. It's really not that black and white.

The Gibroney Hunter: The bloodsoaked fairytale that is Christianity has crushed human liberty and potential, along with every other state sponsored religion of the world. The amount of children and innocence destroyed by this perverted faith, whether it be the uneducated teenagers tricked into fighting the 'evildoers' in the desert, or the women who are guilt tripped into functioning as broodmares for the state, far outweighs any competition from us heathens. But here's the short answer to your question of what my problem with Christianity is: It isn't true. As in, it is false. The story of jesus predates Jesus by millenia. This means, quite obviously, that the story and character traits of jesus (born of a virgin, etc) were simply prescribed to him, if he even existed at all (which is unlikely since none of the prominent historians of the time mention him as an individual, only as a concept (I.e, "the Christ"). Oh yeah, then there's the whole "priests porking children almost constantly" thing.

Hutch's Boy: The only fairy tales referenced above Louie, are your own. It would be fairly easy to pick them apart piece by piece. Let's first deal with your assertion that Christianity is responsible for more bloodshed than the heathens. Really? Mao, 65million, atheist. Stalin, 45 million, atheist. Hitler: 26 million? (this is off the top of my head) pantheist... See More, which technically qualifies as a heathen. Are you sure you don't want to withdraw that ridiculous comment?

In fact, your comments all have about the same level of credibility. Which religions do you claim predate the tale of Christ? What textual criticisms are you applying to the source documents? Are you willing to apply the same standards to the 45,000 pieces of manuscript evidence related to the NT? I seriously doubt it, as you seem to have an aversion to legitimate scholarly works.

Take some time, do some homework, offer some legitimate facts, not this dribble. Then we can have an honest dialogue, not a rock throwing contest.

The Gibroney Hunter: I'm not taking the most extreme view possible, you've just been trained to believe that anyone who's not regurgitating mainstream media double-speak must be in some way extreme. In reality, your belief that this Obama character came out of nowhere to slay the neocon giants and get this country "back on track" is far more extreme than my sober, fact-based assertion that people and organizations in possession of vast power and resources will do what they must to preserve it, including staging false flag attacks and then propping up a fake liberal president as damage control to pacify an increasingly restless population. My views seem extreme only to the sheltered naifs dependent on the mainstream "go back to sleep" media.

The Gibroney Hunter: I can see that your emotion has you blinded on this issue, which is why I'll simply ignore your limp-wristed criticisms. Those numbers must be off the very tippy top of your head, as you seem to have conveniently omitted some of the biggest, like, for example, the American genocides, all committed in the name of your fictional religion (which if we were to tally up, probably would total close to a half billion people, immediately proving you wrong) or the crusades, or our wars for empire against communism, in which fighting the "godless" commies was a major theme. There are many more examples, but I'm afraid I'm not going to play personal encyclopedia to someone who resorts to the mindless chant "prove it!".. The last refuge if a man who knows he's wrong. My statements are so glaringly obvious as to not require footnotes of citation. If for some reason you're not educated enough to know of Mithra, who was born of a virgin, crucified and resurrected 3 says later, or the Egyptian god Isis, also born of a virgin named Myra and resurrected, or the numerous Hindu gods featuring the same played out story, then I'm afraid you require more assistance than I can provide in facebook comments.

Of course, as a fellow advocate of true science, I'm sure I don't need to remind you that the bible cannot stand independently as an historical text, because of the obvious likelihood of bias. It can reinforce other, well... Real historical texts from the time (of which there are many.. None of which mentioning Jesus) but I don't need to address one word of the NT, since, quite simply, it does not pass the scientific/historical litmus test.

The Hutch: Lou, the difference here, is that while I assert my views and try to defend them where I can or reassess them when I can't, you seem so completely and utterly convinced of what you believe that there's no room for other modes of thinking.

Such certainty in the face of so little actual knowledge (in the Socratic sense, not in the "you're stupid" sense) simply comes off as radical and you do your own positions little service.

Also, Chris, a lot of what Lou is referencing re: the Jesus mythos is in that book I mentioned, Joseph Campbell's Hero of a Thousand Faces. Definitely worth checking out.

The Gibroney Hunter: Actually, places where there are no room for other modes of thinking are, for example, the Huff. Post, who asked Jesse Ventura to write an article for them, then censored him when he discussed 9/11. Or pretty much anywhere else in the mainstream media. I am passionate in my views, but not rigid. I acknowledge that I have been wrong in the past and may be wrong again, like any really honest thinker would. But with that said, your criticism seems to be less about my beliefs per se, and more about the fact that I believe them so passionately.

The Hutch's Boy: Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight...JN 18:36

Louie, are you trying to bully me? LOL...it won't work. Besides, it's entirely ineffective (experience speaking here) and it undermines your credibility. In other words, you are among friends, so relax.

Speaking of your facts...your arguments seem to be schizophrenic and somewhat contradictory. Let's deal with one issue at a time, okay? Your comparison to "US genocide" to the killings of Mao, Stalin and Hitler causes me to chuckle and shudder at the same time. Do you really believe what you said? I did some follow up, and the actual numbers are:

Mao: 50-78 million people murdered
Stalin: 23 million people murdered (including the purges)
Hitler: 12 million people murdered

I'd like to see specific numbers from the "American genocides" and not baseless emotional rants.

But there is another component of your claim that I find curious. Your answer carries with it the assertion that the US is a Christian nation? Wow, you and Pat Robertson have more in common than I thought. Even I don't believe that. It's true that our foundational documents rely heavily on the Bible, but it's actually a compromise between Christians of many denominations, Deists and a few Jewish people.

With regards to the Crusades, or other wars you have pointed to, please note my first sentence. It's Jesus' answer to Pilate when asked if he were a king. Do you see Jesus' reply? How can one possibly claim to fight in the name of Christianity, when Christ disavowed himself of any such action? In fact, he chose NOT to defend himself, when Pilate was desperate for an excuse to let him go.

That's actually an important distinction, when analyzing the Crusades. When the Christians killed in the name of Christ, they did so in direct contradiction to Jesus' life and words. The Muslims, however, were following the exact example of Mohammed himself. Worth noting, I think.

Would you care to address your other points? They also have some glaring difficulties. You should know, Louie, that I haven't stumbled into my set of beliefs. I am also happy to carry this discussion to a deep level, as it is always a learning and enriching experience. Please respond. I'm looking forward to it.

PS...In case you two are interested, the arguments of that book are right out of the French and German Enlightenment movement of the late 18th/early 19th Centuries. Most of their claims held a lot of weight, until the British began archaeological study of Israel. They are actually far less palatable today, but I'd be happy to address them.

The Gibroney Hunter: No, I'm not attempting to bully you through facebook. That would be retarded. If you are being bullied though, it's by facts and reality, not by me.

Why you would chuckle over the mass murder of an estimated 113 million people is beyond me, as it is both unfunny and devastating to your argument, even without the mention of the countless other mass murders and wars committed in the name of god.

I'm not sure what your point is, in engaging in hair-splitting over whether or not our country is officially (whatever that means) Christian, as we all know that god and patriotism are always used as motivators to trick people into fighting in wars. So "officially" Christian or not, your god and bible are an indispensable part of the military industrial complex.

We all know that Jesus was a pacifist. And we all also know that nearly every single one of his followers through the ages have not been. So while your observations comparing muhammad and Jesus are correct, I'm afraid your point is moot, since the end result is the same: people tricked into killing other people because of a book. But while we're comparing the two religions, it's worth noting that the prophet Muhammad has the advantage over Jesus of actually having existed and being a legitimate historical figure. That is also worth noting.

You're not the first to try to dismiss the historical truth about the Jesus story as some fad of the enlightenment, as this period was when these hidden origins of Christianity began to be more widely known. But no amount of archaeological digging can change the widely recognized fact that Jesus is a hybrid of many dieties. I'm curious, what specific artifacts did the British produce that disprove the claim that the Jesus story predates Christianity by millenia?

Hutch's Boy: "And we all also know that nearly every single one of his followers through the ages have not been."

You know, I almost doubted this comment, until I saw the picture of Mother Theresa choking a small Nepali girl for using improper grammar when she begged for bread!

Again, Louie, no credibility. Seriously, you shouldn't throw bombs without knowledge. The church has been engaged in human rights causes since its inception. I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the #1 casualty of the Roman Catholic Church are Christians. In the case of the RCC, it is primarily a secular humanist political movement, as much as it is about the Christian faith.

" the prophet Muhammad has the advantage over Jesus of actually having existed"

Not a serious scholarly argument, given the massive amount of manuscript evidence from the NT and archaeological evidence supporting the gospel accounts. I will defer to Sir William Ramsay's work on the book of Acts and Luke. There is SERIOUS scholarly work on the subject. Those who claim Jesus to be a mythical historical figure are also big on fake lunar walk claims, as I understand. Seriously, it's just an angry, ignorant position. It ignores all of the rules for textual criticism and the analysis of ancient history.

It's probably a waste of time, but here's a brief defense of the archeological claims. It's footnoted well, so you can find more in-depth work on the subject if you'd like.

http://www.grmi.org/Richard_Riss/evidences/3trust.html

What you cite are recycled arguments that have been TROUNCED years ago, but are being thrown out there again with the hopes that its followers would choose to embrace ignorance than actually check the facts. There is ample archaeological evidence to support the historic veracity of Luke's account. If you'd like, we can go more in depth on this subject.

As to your final point about the story of Jesus predating his birth by millenia? You and I will have little quarrel here, Louie. It's actually the PRIMARY reason I'm a Christian and not merely a convert to Judaism. Jesus' birth, life and resurrection were indeed specifically spelled out in advance of his life. In fact, I think a better argument against the Bible would be if no hybrids of the story could be found in other civilizations, given the Biblical claim of common origin.

The first time we see the prediction of the virgin birth, for example, is in the Garden of Eden. In Genesis Chapter 3:

GE 3:15 And I will put enmity



between you and the woman,



and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,



and you will strike his heel."

The use of the phrase in Hebrew is "seed of the woman" is significant, if you understand it in its context. Only in modern times did Jewish people recognize genealogical lineage through the woman. It was always a patriarchal society (a radical departure is attributable to Christianity, incidentally) an in this context is a direct reference to Eve being a sole progenitor. Worth noting. There are countless other examples from the book of Genesis, whereby the entire gospel message can be derived. But I'm sure you aren't all that well versed on the subject. I'd be happy to enlighten you, if you desire.

The Gibroney Hunter: At this point I'm just amused that you would even attempt to refute the very obvious fact that the vast majority of christians have not practiced pacifism, as Jesus (supposedly) did. The very fact that your rebuttal consists only of a reference to one mother Theresa, is confirmation of how silly your stubborn disagreement on this point is. And let's just skip over any lame response like "yeah but real christians are pacifists." We don't get to cherrypick like that. "real" Christians, just like Sarah Palin's "real" Americans, must view themselves as a whole, and not selectively. Otherwise the very distinction of "Christian" becomes meaningless.

I'm also not sure why you're unaware of the fact that the bible simply does not qualify as a historical text independently. As much fun as it would be to debate this, I'm afraid it's a simple indisputable fact within the fields of of history and archaeology. While Sir William Ramsay's work may be a valid scholarly examination of the bible, it in no way supports your claim that the bible is a valid scholarly work. You're aware that science must be unbiased, correct? You're also aware that the bible, whether you believe the stories or not, is extremely biased, as per the definition of a book of faith? I'd hate to assume otherwise, but your statements leave me little choice.

"There is ample archaeological evidence to support the historic veracity of Luke's account."

Which "lukes account"? Which politicized translation of the account should we go by? Are we beginning to see the problem here? Also, the very act of being ones disciple disqualifies one from taking a truly unbiased scholarly approach to their god. Think about it. If I believed George bush was my god.. Literally.. Then wouldn't I be the very last person you'd turn to for an unbiased account of George bush?

"Those who claim Jesus to be a mythical historical figure are also big on fake lunar walk claims, as I understand."

This is what's called the "guilt by association" technique. When someone cannot counter with facts or superior reasoning, they resort to associations with unrelated, and socially stigmatized beliefs, like Elvis being alive, and what have you. This is the equivalent to being a hack in the field of comedy. Also, I can only laugh when being called crazy by someone who believes in an invisible man in the sky, holding a list of 10 things he doesn't want you to do.

I can only express sympathy at your delusional assertion that the reason that other deities throughout history have had the same story and characteristics of the Sun-God, is because it was all a big cosmic build-up to the real god, who really was born of a virgin, nevermind the numerous other gods to whom this was attributed first. And yes, the crucifixion story predates Christianity, but this time it's the real deal. With all due respect, give me a break. These types of arguments remind me of the small child, having just been told there's no Santa, trying desperately to theorize about how such a fat man really could fit through the chimney. It reflects a state of arrested development, both emotional and intellectual.

Also, you seem to be confused about what it means to "trounce" a belief. You can search til the cows come home for positive confirmation of jesus' existence (which of course you won't find). But that misses the point. You must disprove the existence of the belief on deities like Mithra, Zoroaster, Horus, and various Hindu deities, all predating Jesus and having the same characteristics (which makes sense, since the entire story is based on astronomy/astrology, not an individual)

The Hutch: This argument like the goddam world series and super bowl all wrapped into one awesome facebook thread.

Hutch's Boy: Louie, I'm not sure you know who Sir William Ramsay is. He's actually responsible for most of what we know about Asia Minor and the Roman Empire. He's no lightweight, and I would think his opinion on matters of ancient history would carry a LOT more weight than any document you have referenced. From Wiki:

http://bit.ly/9xPYLV

With regards to Ramsay, I ESPECIALLY love your comment: "You're aware that science must be unbiased, correct? You're also aware that the bible, whether you believe the stories or not, is extremely biased, as per the definition of a book of faith?"

Not only is Ramsay an internationally respected scientist (he was even knighted, dude!) but HE apparently set out with the exact same belief that you expressed above. When he initially went to Israel it was to DISPROVE Luke's writings (Acts and Luke). His conclusion? He believed Dr. Luke to be the greatest and most accurate historian in all of antiquity. Ramsay's conversion to Christianity occurred AFTER he set out to examine the evidence. Something I can say of myself, and frankly something which you have not endeavored to do.

But it sounds like your version of science requires me to disregard the evidence and go with the angry guy who "says it's so". LOL...I hope you appreciate my humor. It's not intended to be completely insulting (just a little insulting).

Seriously, though, you should take a closer look before you lash out. Your "facts" are not based on research. They are based on bogus assertions from angry people who pretend to have the facts.

For example, "Which politicized translation of the account should we go by?"

Are you referring to Textus Receptus, or Wescott and Horts? Do you even know how manuscript evidence is compiled and graded? Are you even mildly aware of the MOUNTAIN of manuscript evidence for the NT verses other works? There are literally TENS OF THOUSANDS of pieces of manuscript evidence (not versions, mind you, but manuscripts) used to compile modern NT texts. Where there are differences, they are actually just spelling or grammar. There have been NO significant conflicts reported by competent scholars. Read Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" for a thorough annotation. Incidentally, Josh's book is actually copies from his doctoral thesis. He was compiling evidence to DISPROVE the Bible through the types of "errors" you misreport. His work has impacted millions..

I think it's time you prove something. You make a lot of sweeping statements and say things like "everybody knows" but so far have offered zero evidence.

You say the crucifiction story predates Christ? Why don't you provide "evidence".

Or, you make the claim that "nearly every single one" of Jesus' disciples have not been pacifists? Oh my...why don't you present me with a study which demonstrates the warlike nature of Christians verses the rest of society. Holy crap that's funny.

Do you know why I picked Mother Theresa? Unlike MOST Christians, she's known for her life accomplishments. Most Christians I know give of themselves and do not seek fame or recognition in return. Maybe my church is the exception, but we rarely set out to murder our fellow man in ours. Hmm...Are you sure the people who fight wars aren't doing it for greed and lust for power?

Anyway, I'd like to see your "evidence" for the pre-Jesus crucifiction stories (along with manuscript references, please), and/or an academic study linking faith to violence.

Good luck.

The Hutch: It is worth noting, Chris, that Mother Theresa is a lot of trumped up nonsense. Christopher Hitchens wrote an expose book on her and there's a lot of stuff in her life that the church doesn't talk about.

In other words, Saint Theresa is no saint.

The Gibroney Hunter: This isn't a popularity contest. Science isn't conducted by reputations, it's conducted with certain unbreakable rules. No matter how big your hard-on for Ramsay is, it will never cange the fact that.. Everybody sing it with me now... The bible is not a valid historical document. I'll ask again, since you didn't answer the first time: exactly what artifact or document was discovered that conclusively proved that Jesus did exist and is god?

You seem to think that a passing reference to an author and his conversion is adequate scientific evidence to support your claim, which could help explain why you're a Christian in the first place, as your desire to be right far outweighs your ability to follow basic scientiic principles.

You appear to be defending Christianity against a charge that wasn't made, namely that Christians are especially warlike, compared to followers of other religions. You took issue with my statement that Christianity, like all other state sponsored religions, is used to manipulate people into fighting wars. Unfortunately this doesn't set Christianity apart from other faiths, only gives it the predictable stink of organized religion.

You need an academic study to understand the reality of the crusades, or the inquisition, or witch trials?

Greed? Lust for power? Uhm, I think you're thinking of the people who start wars, not the people who fight in them. The 18 year old kid from Kentucky who signed up for college money and because his church told him it's the right thing to do, is not going to be rich or powerful, I assure you. Is it just me or are your statements becoming yet more ridiculous?

"Most Christians I know.."

"Maybe my church is the exception.."

Told ya. Told ya you would use the "yeah but REAL Christians are different" routine. I'm very sorry. But you Christians don't get to support war, sexism, bigotry, and rape of children worldwide and then get to be pacifists simply because you like the title.

I've never seen someone who's offered no evidence of their own, other than the quasi-evidence of religious manuscripts, so incessantly demand that the other side produce it. Usually Christians know enough not to tread into scientific waters, since science has this tendency to swiftly and easily dismantle myths, like the Christian myth, or the myth of the official story of 9/11. Also a simple google search for the word "Mithra" or "Horus" should provide you with much of the evidence you need, but here you go. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,893345,00.html

Lashing out? I can't think of more typically Christian behavior than to begin a debate on your faith, and when confronted with the facts to accuse the other side of "lashing out". Telling you the truth about your woefully misguided faith isn't lashing out. It's actually an act of compassion, as my hope is that Christians will be freed from their intellectual and spiritual enslavement.

Hutch's Boy: Louie, other than your obvious bias, on what basis do you dismiss Sir William Ramsay's lifetime work, and Josh McDowell's Evidence that Demands a Verdict? Which claims does "science" dispute? You are totally ignorant of both works, yet you dismiss them? And I am the one who is led around by emotions.

Go ahead, Mr. Science (lol...hope you don't mind), give me the specific portions of their work that you reject.

You can't Louie, because you're ignorant. It's that simple. I have read the skeptical arguments and can lay claim to their shortcomings. You just spew hatred about things you are ignorant of. Read them and get back to me.


the Gibroney Hunter: I haven't dismissed anyone's work, only reminded you of the illegitimacy of the bible in terms of its acceptability as a historic document, by strict scientific standards. It's you who's transparently attempted to deflect points and steer the debate into the laps of your two favorite authors, rather than focus on uncomfortable facts. No matter how historically accurate or thorough a passage of the bible is, it still must be corroborated by other, non-religious texts, physical evidence, etc.

What exactly are Ramsay's and McDowell's claims, other than that they're believers? Is it that they have incontrovertible scientific evidence of Jesus' existence and godliness? If so, I think you would have mentioned it by now, as I've asked this question at least twice already.

In what way have I spewed hatred? You christians are always so dramatic.

Hutch's Boy: I don't find the facts uncomfortable at all. Actually, I am trying to base my arguments entirely on facts. That's how I became a Christian, Louie. Let me start over.

You assert, without evidence, that the Bible is an invalid historic document. I mention Ramsay and McDowell, for two reasons:

Ramsay spent his prestigious career as a world renowned archaeologist (probably the most important of the late 19th/early 20th century) coming to the conclusion, ENTIRELY THROUGH HIS SCIENTIFIC WORK (emphasis not yelling), that the Bible IS a historically valid argument. To the extent that he names Dr. Luke the greatest historian in the ancient world.

You don't like what the Bible says, so you claim it's not historic. Who do I believe, Louie, who has NEVER done any scientific analysis, or Ramsay, who dedicated his entire life's work?

Now let's go on to McDowell. His book is a detailed compilation of manuscript evidence. The book establishes the credibility of the current text by virtue of tens of thousands of pieces of manuscript evidence. (By comparison, the nearest second place document are Homers works, which we have a total of 600 or so pieces of manuscript. Most ancient texts are less than 100 pieces or so. Compared to 45,000 you can see why any honest person would drop their claims about authenticity).

None of this proves that Jesus wasn't a madman. It simply places the light of scientific discovery on the FACT that the Bible is a period authentic document.

Your claims are baseless and cannot be supported with evidence. I could give you evidence until the cows come home, but you don't seem to be interested in facts. You just want to say the Bible is not a historic document, but you have no basis to do so, other than your contempt.

Now, lecture me about science again, sir.

Incidentally, that article is noteworthy. It points specifically to the fact that the notion of a suffering messiah predates Christ. Whether or not you know it, you have actually supported the identity of Jesus as Messiah. It's an inside argument, but thank you for supporting my position. The scrolls at Qumran are HUGE in establishing the validity of the Book of Isaiah, as well as some other texts. Major discovery.

I wanted to give you a specific example of archeaologic discovery. There are literally thousands, but here's one:

Pontius Pilate. Skeptics in the 19th century claimed for years he didn't exist. This criticism was compelling and held up in peoples mind for a long time. In fact, the more we uncovered in archaeologic digs, the more compelling the argument became.... See More

There was simply NO EVIDENCE for Pilate's existence.

Then something happened. There was an ampitheater which was unearthed, which had stone benches for seating. One of the benches was overturned and on the underside was a decree from Ceaser (I think it was Tiberius). Pilate had so angered him (in the Gospel accounts, it indicates that Ceaser was already angry with Pilate, which is why he caved to political pressure) that Ceaser gave a decree to wipe out every memory of Pilate from the Roman Empire.

Pilate was erased. In fact, for years the only record of Pilate was the Gospels. It looked like a myth, but science prevailed.

COUNTLESS examples like it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate

The Hutch: "You don't like what the Bible says, so you claim it's not historic. Who do I believe, Louie, who has NEVER done any scientific analysis, or Ramsay, who dedicated his entire life's work?"

Don't believe either of them. Just do what I did and look at all the available evidence for the christian mythos vs. the natural world. The latter turns up mountains of evidence. The former has a book. One, single, solitary book with, as Lou has strenuously pointed out, is not corroborated by physical evidence or other non-religious or historical text.

Ramsay may have put together a pretty impressive document, I don't know. I haven't read it. But he is just one man. Science demands not the opinion of one man, but actual, quantifiable evidence. Lou keeps asking for some of the evidence that Ramsay found, but you haven't set anything compelling to that effect yet.

That said, I do think Lou more than occasionally demands far too much evidence. 9/11, for example, from my perspective has more than enough evidence to support the the bulk of the official story, as does the moon landing and a number of other conspiracy theories. The analogy of the butler murder works here: we have video of the butler getting a knife, the butler walking into the parlor room, and video of the butler walking out moments later wiping off a bloody knife and going about his business. Sure, we don't have video of the actual murder that took place in the parlor, and some people might scream their heads off that something else could have happened in that parlor, but from my perspective, there's more than enough evidence to indict the butler.

Anyhow, this debate, as fun as it is to read, is precisely why I call Obama a centrist. Fact of the matter is, America's a big place with a lot of ideas. You could be far more left than Obama is (and oh how I wish he was) and, according to various gallup polls on various issues, a good size portion of the populace _is_ more left. But the same could be said about being more right.

It leaves Obama dead center, leaning very slightly left on a few issues.

This is, of course, taking for granted the whole left/right political spectrum which we all know is bullshit but I use here just for the sake of making a general point.

Hutch's Boy: John, do you want a list of the people who have dedicated their lives to this research? There are libraries full of them. Your sources, if you look around, are circular. The historic argument has been played, replayed and replayed again. Each time the textual and archaeological evidence has come up in support of the Bible's historic claims.

The Bible is not a history book. But, it does cite specific events in history. Where it cites those events, the evidence has supported those claims. You, like most atheists, point to a thread of defeated arguments (by defeated, I mean the actual facts point in the other direction, but are simply ignored) and act like the case has been closed.

For years, Isaiah was written after Christ died. Then the Dead Sea Scrolls show up, VERIFYING Isaiah 53, which predates Jesus. The evidence is so compelling that skeptics immediately invent from whole cloth another set of "explanations" because the conclusion isn't palatable.

Why haven't you read any supporting documents, John? The world is full of them. It's simple. You don't like the idea, so you dismiss it without a careful examination of the truth.

That is the only thing that separates our conclusions. Think about it.

The Gibroney Hunter: Here's Gordon Stein's devastating critique of McDowell's work.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/jesus.shtml

"9/11, for example, from my perspective has more than enough evidence to support the the bulk of the official story..."

Like what? What evidence are you referring to?

Refer to the facebook message I sent you months ago (that was never responded to) for a reminder of some of the key discrepencied within the official story.

Be sure not to follow Chris's footsteps and pit your faith in the word of authority, like in the case of osama bin laden's "confession" video, which later unbiased translations (by the Germans) revealed that he merely mentioned the attacks, not confessed. Combined with the fact that the individual in the video is very clearly a body double (google it if you doubt). Combined with the fact of his verified statement on the day of 9/11, denying any responsibility and pointing the finger at criminals within our own government and private sector.

The Hutch: "The evidence is so compelling that skeptics immediately invent from whole cloth another set of "explanations" because the conclusion isn't palatable."

Chris, this is how science works. You have described it's fundamental philosophy. Form a hypothesis. Gather evidence. Does the evidence agree with the hypothesis? If so keep gathering evidence, looking for holes or cracks in the hypothesis. If not, form a new hypothesis. Repeat.

God is not a viable hypothesis because it cannot be tested with what we currently know about the universe. Science deals with the natural world. The observable and provable. Even if God were to come down to earth, perform some miracles, and walk around, Science would form hypotheses on how this is possible and fit what is happening in with our current data set on the natural world. Maybe we'd have to dismantle physics or something. Guaranteed, someone would want to get in there with an electron microscope.

Point is... the supernatural and science do not mix. They cannot mix. If you want to base your life on the bible and God, that's fine with me provided that you do not try to legislate your beliefs and you don't go trying to use science to prove your faith. Seeing as you do both, it makes my head a bit explodey.

Lou, I read the link you sent months ago, I just didn't respond because I didn't find it all that compelling and I knew I'd be unable to convince you of anything other than what you believe. I agree that it's more than possible or even likely that Osama was a bogeyman. But to insinuate that the US government was anything other than incompetent in the whole saga, I think, is too much.

Hutch's Boy: Louie, this isn't devastating at all. In fact, the author has a number of his facts incorrect in this article and is stating them as absolutes. One right off the bat is the idea that there was no death penalty in Jewish law for blasphemy. That's simply not true. Irregardless, he highlights an important issue.

Before you draw a conclusion, you should examine all of the evidence. John's post about science is compelling, except that he leaves off the imperative that all evidence be examined, not simply that which is convenient to your argument.

Louie, this article hits on Josephus as a historical reference for the existence of Jesus. Notice that I never mentioned Josephus? Nor did I mention Pliny the Younger. In both cases, I think there is too much open to question to utilize their references to Jesus (especially Josephus).

But the fact is, it's not necessary. McDowell does an excellent job highlighting the massive amount of manuscript evidence to verify that the modern version of the Bible is reliable to the original writings.

Ramsay's work demonstrates those writings are period authentic.

Can you really call your opinion honest, when you have only examined evidence that fits your conclusions?

The Gibroney Hunter: You became a Christian based on facts? I thought the whole thing is based on faith? I'm not sure I follow.

The evidence that the bible cannot simply be taken at face value, scientifically, lies in the very nature of the book; a book of faith. This does not mean that it should be ignored or excluded from historic or archaeological endeavors, only that it cannot be viewed as an independent historical text. The information within it simply must be corroborated. No further evidence is required to understand this point. A 6th grade level education in the scientific method, however, is.

"Who do I believe, Louie.. or Ramsay"

Neither. You steer your beliefs toward the facts and the scientific method. Nowhere else. This incessant urge to identify with an authority figure or leader is one of the most dangerous aspects of the Christian psychosis.

Thank you for the brief biography of your favorite authors, I'm afraid, however, that it still proved nothing. When I speak of scientific evidence, I'm referring to more than simply a tally of who's analyzed the most ancient manuscripts. There's also physical archaeological evidence, which is prized over any ancient writing alone.

"Notice that I never mentioned Josephus? Nor did I mention Pliny the Younger."

But McDowell does. And since the crux of your "argument" seems to be the fact that this guy wrote a book (a book about another faith-based book, which is kindof the point), the criticisms are relevent. Also you are aware that Gordan Stein's criticism was written in 1982, and also isn't assessed specifically to you, correct? So you may not have mentioned josephus or Pliny the younger because you're already aware if how shabby the evidence is, but the fact is that most of your peers would and do mention them, as fraudulent and ridiculous they are as historical references.

Hutch's Boy: Louie, the archeological evidence points to the Bible being period authentic. Luke mentions very specific details about regional governments, structures, etc...as do many of the OT texts. The article you linked to points to a problem in one area of McDowell's work. Hardly damning.

Trust me, Louie, I have more than a cursory knowledge of the scientific method. I don't have an advanced degree, but my undergrad studies carry me beyond most.

But again, it is not I who refuses to examine the evidence. Can you illuminate me as to the archeaological evidence that refutes the Biblical historic account? I have given you the existence of Pontius Pilate. Now give me the refutation.

The Gibroney Hunter: Well you kind of guarantee not being able to convince me otherwise by not responding. Also I was referring to a brief summary of some key points I sent you, not a link, but whatever.

You can be as uncompelled as you want, but you know as well as I that, scientifically, saying "I'm not impressed" is a good start, but otherwise pretty meaningless. As a believer of the official story, you're relying on litle else than the word of your government, and the dismissal of an ever growing body of contradictory evidence as merely coincidences. It seems that the standard coincidence theorist's response to such damning facts like the insider trading that went on on wall street in anticipation of the attacks, or the presence of nano thermite, a military grade explosive, at ground zero, is: "I don't know how to explain that, nor do I care to."

This lazy and unscientific approach to the matter was easy to pull off for quite a few years, but with the list of architects and engineers supporting a new investigation already past 1,000 (closer to 1,500 by now) it's becoming more and more difficult for people in denial to hide behind the "lack of professional credibility" defense.

Insinuate? There's no I insinuation here, friend. Criminal elements within our own government are responsible for 9/11. The evidence is conclusive. I do admire how closely you follow the mainstream media's strategy of character attack, though, intentionally choosing words like "insinuate" to give the impression that there's something sneaky or backhanded about my views.

The remarkable thing is that while parrotting the wholly unsupported "incompetence" theory, many adherents to the official story will casually dismiss the extensive body of evidence indicating the opposite (like osama being visited by C.I.A agents in a Dubai hospital just weeks before the attacks, for example), apparently without realizing that the evidence disproving the official "19 hijackers" conspiracy theory is superior both quantitatively and qualitatively.

For example, are you aware that the supposed lead hijacker, Mohammed attah, was a known drug runner and C.I.A asset who had a stripper girlfriend and loved pork chops? Now I'm no detective, but that sure don't sound like the profile of a Muslim extremist prepared for a martyrdom mission. Sounds a bit more like a patsy and peon who probably wasn't aware of the true nature of his circumstances. Study of the methodology of clandestine intelligence organizations such as the C.I.A (who wield more power than official governments) is necessary in order for these type of false flag terror attacks to be properly understood.

The Gibroney Hunter: The many faces of Osama Bin Boogeyman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBcceMCIWd0

The Gibroney Hunter: The issue isn't the historical content of the bible. Indeed, much of it is valid. The problem, like **** said, is that you seem to be asserting that science has somehow proven the validity of your faith, which is not only false but in a sense quite absurd, because why would an adherent to a faith-based system be so desperately searching for secular confirmation anyway?

There's just no way around it. You can believe whatever you want, but to bring science into a defense of your fate is and always has been self defeating for Christians. But this fact shouldn't dissuade the truly faithful, since they have.. Yknow.. Faith.

"Can you illuminate me as to the archeaological evidence that refutes the Biblical historic account?"

Yes. Dinosaurs.

Chemtrails N.J (6)

This is what I saw above my head when I left the house last week. They were really having a field day.

Chemtrails N.J (5)

New Jersey. A great place to live and work. If you have a good HAZMAT suit.

Global Warming. The non-debate.

Pathetic. I expected more from RT than to simply parrot the American MSM's assertion that Climate Change scientists can only make snafus, not commit fraud.

They're approaching the "Himalayas" story as if it occurred in a vacuum. As if leaked e-mails from the University of East Anglia haven't also revealed Climate Change scientists' deliberate attempts to hide temperature declines, as if there isn't a slew of other evidence indicated wrongdoing, that should be considered along with this latest issue.